If Glavine actually is the last pitching move.

[mark4004]

Let's say that Glavine is the last move we make. 1-4 is pretty much set, given that Hampton is healthy.. big assumption I know. the top 3 contenders for the 5 spot will be "Reyes, Jurjen (spelling?), and James" who do you expect out of these 3 or do you expect a darkhorse bennet or carlyle?

[vnodnarb]

I think James will definitely get the first crack at the #5 spot if he isn't traded. He has had some success at the ML level unlike the other two and has nothing more to prove in the minors. I expect Reyes and Jurrjens to be #6 and #7, respectively and starting the year in Richmond.

[SamtheBravesFan]

If Glavine is the last move, I will be incredibly upset.

[dogmanx23]

JS never said who he wanted or was going after and i don't expect FW to do anything different.

[mark4004]

It's a hypothetical situation... I'm just asking.. let's say you knew for sure that was the last move who would be the #5 and why?.. that's all.. I agree vnodnarb that James will have the first crack at it... however, if you have ever watched Jurjen in some highlights at the Major league level he'll sorta remind you of a pitcher in cleveland that goes by the last name Carmona.

[McCarroll21]

Glavine isn't the last move, to the hypothetical will prove to be moot.

[mark4004]

Well, yeah you're probably right... and if you are right and we get someone good enough to move Glavine to #4 then better luck next year to the phillies and mets.

[CB1]

What if we had an opportunity for some team to hypothetically lose it and come calling for Hampton. Would you do whatever the deal was just to get his contract off the books or would you say, no, leave it, we're just waiting for Tommy Hanson to come and be 100 million x more efficient in the middle of the season? :D

[vnodnarb]

Glavine isn't the last move, to the hypothetical will prove to be moot.

Probably right, but when Hampton goes down, we're left with the same scenario assuming none of those three get traded.

Smoltz, Hudson, Glavine, Hampton New Pitcher, (James, Jurrjens, or Reyes)

[Gibby]

If Glavine is the last move, I will be incredibly upset.

Glavine isn't the last move, to the hypothetical will prove to be moot.

Wren just said Glavine would likely be our last move. Saying that we have like 8 starters. I want another pitcher, but I think we're done after Glavine.

[mark4004]

So who exactly is this Tommy Hanson dude

[McCarroll21]

Wren just said Glavine would likely be our last move. Saying that we have like 8 starters. I want another pitcher, but I think we're done after Glavine.
And Wren is blowing smoke because that is not the case. Close the book on those thoughts.

[HeidiBee21]

Tommy Hanson = Awesome guy in the Braves org. (minors) who was nice enough to come chat with us for 2 hours last night. He's a pitcher.

[Gibby]

And Wren is blowing smoke because that is not the case. Close the book on those thoughts.
Hope you're right, but I'm still putting my money on no one after Glavine. But please prove me wrong FW!

[vnodnarb]

Wren just said Glavine would likely be our last move. Saying that we have like 8 starters. I want another pitcher, but I think we're done after Glavine.

I think he is satisfied with 8 pitchers as that gives him 3 potential replacements, but he can always trade one if he wants another.

[mark4004]

Yeah I'd rather think for the worst, so that way when and if FW does make some big time moves such as getting haren I will be pumped.

[SamtheBravesFan]

How in the world can Glavine be the Braves' last move?! They can pretty much only count on consistency from Smoltzand Hudson at this point, Glavine if he comes. How can we count on Hampton, James or Reyes for the amount of quality starts the Braves need to contend?

[WarParty]

Alright, I'm stepping out here to say I don't think Chuck James will be anything special for the Braves or any other MLB team. Why? Having been a pitcher myself in college, but not a pro, I can state that this guy does not listen to his coaches or be mindful of basic tenets.

Mainly, Chuck does not follow through on his delievery most of the time, he doesn't 'bend his back' and sort of slings the ball to the plate in an upright stance, resulting in a flat ball that's very hittable.

[Gibby]

How in the world can Glavine be the Braves' last move?! They can pretty much only count on consistency from Smoltzand Hudson at this point, Glavine if he comes. How can we count on Hampton, James or Reyes for the amount of quality starts the Braves need to contend?

Because even if we only get Glavine, it's still an improvement over last season. So even if that's the only move Wren makes, technically, he's done his job. Would that be enough? It would probably go down to the wire, but we were only 5 games back last year, so it might be.

[KB 34]

Is Wren saying Glavine would be the last starter the Braves acquire, or the starter the Braves will sign on the FA market. Is this 8 starters we're set mentality permanent, or going to change if 2 of them are included in a deal for another starter when they realize Hampton is done? Could it be that the Braves are trying to sound confident to make teams think they really don't want another starter and aren't going to pay? (as in because Glavine is a #3 starter, Hampton is another #3, and James is a #3 starter, we have no need for another starter so we'll take Blanton off your hands) I'm amazed to see how many people have figured this out because I'm still really unsure.

[mark4004]

Yeah.. I think sometimes people's optimism can lead them to false confidence.

[SamtheBravesFan]

Is Wren saying Glavine would be the last starter the Braves acquire, or the starter the Braves will sign on the FA market. Is this 8 starters we're set mentality permanent, or going to change if 2 of them are included in a deal for another starter when they realize Hampton is done? Could it be that the Braves are trying to sound confident to make teams think they really don't want another starter and aren't going to pay? (as in because Glavine is a #3 starter, Hampton is another #3, and James is a #3 starter, we have no need for another starter so we'll take Blanton off your hands) I'm amazed to see how many people have figured this out because I'm still really unsure.

James is a #3 starter? That's laughable.

[KB 34]

James is a #3 starter? That's laughable.
But if you were trying to get another team to take him in a trade you'd point to his 2006 season and scream from the roofs that he's a #3 starter who just had a bad season.

[milbraves]

I think James will definitely get the first crack at the #5 spot if he isn't traded. He has had some success at the ML level unlike the other two and has nothing more to prove in the minors. I expect Reyes and Jurrjens to be #6 and #7, respectively and starting the year in Richmond.

Jurrjens has had some major league success.

[farbisimo]

Definately finished after Glavine. As much as I'd love to see him finish his career in Atlanta, I almost don't want him to come back so we go out and sign a solid #2 starter. But chances are slim to none.

http://i24.photobucket.com/albums/c50/braveschopbraves/murph2dahal.png

[vnodnarb]

Jurrjens has had some major league success.

I'd hardly call 30 innings and an above league average ERA success.

[Gibby]

I'd hardly call 30 innings and an above league average ERA success.
Yea, it only shows he has potential. And I'm kinda tired of all the talk about potential in the organization. Kyle Davies had sooo much potential, Chuck James has sooo much potential to be a great pitcher, Jojo Reyes... etc. Maybe Jurrjens will be the guys to step it up and takes the bull by the horns.

[Scalpel19]

Glavine will be the last FA pitcher, I would be surprised if he is the last pitcher with all the stuff I've heard regarding various players

[nickzilla6066]

You are all kidding when you mention Chuck James as if his rotation spot were a doubt right? Go look at the numbers, he would easily be one of the better 5th starters in all of baseball. Doesn't give up too many hits, walks too many and gives up HR's, we all know his case by now. Simple fact is that more often than not he'll get you to the 6th without letting the other team blow you out of the water, what else do you people want from him? No he's not an ace, no he's not a 3, but he is a quality pitcher and unless traded for something better he will be in the rotation.

[B-RITT]

James def. has the first shot at the 5 spot, but if he struggles, i wouldnt be surprised to see Jurrjens, he went 3-1 with a 4.70 ERA an 13K's in his first seven starts (total of 30.2 innings) at the end of the year in Detroit

[SamtheBravesFan]

But if you were trying to get another team to take him in a trade you'd point to his 2006 season and scream from the roofs that he's a #3 starter who just had a bad season.

True, but the Braves would have to spray the "I'm not Horacio Ramirez" stink off of him to do so. ;)

[KB 34]

Actually, I wouldn't mind James being like Horacio because that would mean he would be dumped for another Soriano, one of which could try and become a starter again.

[SamtheBravesFan]

Actually, I wouldn't mind James being like Horacio because that would mean he would be dumped for another Soriano, one of which could try and become a starter again.

Hee hee, I hear you on that.

[farbisimo]

Wren said that he's gonna focus on the other parts of the team once we sign glavine. He also said that we have, say, seven or eight different starting pitchers. What are the chances, being that we have an old rotation in Smoltzy, and Glavine, and injury prone Hampton, that we go to a six man rotation. I don't see it being a hrrible idea if the youngins do moderately well.

[mardale26]

Wren said that he's gonna focus on the other parts of the team once we sign glavine. He also said that we have, say, seven or eight different starting pitchers. What are the chances, being that we have an old rotation in Smoltzy, and Glavine, and injury prone Hampton, that we go to a six man rotation. I don't see it being a hrrible idea if the youngins do moderately well.
Excellent suggestion. I would like to see Hudson start every 5th day, like they are thinking of doing in Boston with Beckett.

[Scalpel19]

Not to bust anyones bubble, but 6 man rotations just don't work here. Too long of a layoff between starts

[charpotsss]

Not to bust anyones bubble, but 6 man rotations just don't work here. Too long of a layoff between starts

agreed. i've never heard of pitchers liking it.

Yea, it only shows he has potential. And I'm kinda tired of all the talk about potential in the organization. Kyle Davies had sooo much potential, Chuck James has sooo much potential to be a great pitcher, Jojo Reyes... etc. Maybe Jurrjens will be the guys to step it up and takes the bull by the horns.

better to show potential than start off by getting blown out of the water. i haven't looked up the numbers on this, but i would imagine that most aces today "showed potential" when they first started out. how can anyone complain about a pitcher showing potential? true, you shouldn't bank on potential, but it's still a lot better than the alternative.

[GTBrave]

Wren said we have like 8 starters... He is just dancing around the fact that Chuckie will be in the package for Blanton. That way we will still have 8 starters... just like he said.

Please be right please be right please be right.

[absintheofmalaise]

The Sox are not going to a 6 man rotation. It has been shown that going to the 5 man from the 4 man rotation has not lessened the number of injuries to pitching staffs. The Sox are going to use the regular 5 man rotation with spot starts from a 6th man and planned rest. Here is a quote from Farrell about it from the 11/14 Boston Globe (http://www.boston.com/sports/baseball/redsox/articles/2007/11/14/these_days_its_a_contact_sport/)-"Pitching coach John Farrell discussed the possibility the Red Sox would go to a six-man rotation, in response to reports that the team was considering an arrangement of that nature with Josh Beckett, Curt Schilling, Tim Wakefield, Daisuke Matsuzaka, Jon Lester, and Clay Buchholz all returning in 2008. He said it was brought up as a discussion point. "I think the overarching goal would be, how can we build in extra rest for each of our starters?" Farrell said. "One of the ways to do that would be to insert a sixth starter. One of the ways to do that would be to take advantage of the off days in the schedule. There have been informal discussions. Just looking at every method toward giving our starters additional rest." Farrell added that, with the way the Sox rested starters, they were able to go into October with extra time off, which may have helped them in the postseason . . . With October innings factored into the offseason program of many of the starters, they will go through a four- to six-week recovery period before they begin their strength and conditioning work. Then there will be a two-week window, from Dec. 15 to Jan. 1, in which they will start their throwing programs. The flexibility allows each of the pitchers to start on a date that is determined by the major league staff, with a mind to the extra postseason innings that were accumulated."

Here is a post by Schilling on the public part of a board-" I am throwing out opinion only, no facts.

My thoughts are that it would ONLY be a true '6 man rotation' when you had 6 or more consecutive games with no off days. I would think given the rotation make up, that you'd shoot to have someone like Josh go every 5th day, and build in rest for him with an extra day off on an off day cycle, or the 6th man when there wasn't one, based on the current situation.

You would work around him based on feedback from him. EVeryone else either

A) Benefits for some reason from an extra day (wake, me, old dudes or Dice back into the comfort of a "6 man" rotation)

B) Allows the organization rules on IP increases to remain in play, while at the same time allowing anyone pitching under those rules to remain a starter through October should you get there.

Very few teams are sitting around with 6 legitimate ML options to hand starts to, hell most are scrambling for 4. I would expect this sort of outside the box thinking to originate from an organization like this one and I don't think it's being done just to create chatter.
The huge plus is that you have a built in buffer should a starter go down for real. EVeryone works under the notion we are readying to pitch in a 5 man, and where appropriate you stretch the rotation.

The other HUGE plus to something like this is that it allows a younger pitcher to do 2 things.

1) Get ML experience and confidence in smaller, easier to manage increments such as 1-2 IP out of the pen 2 and 3 times a week as well as the more important one for me

2) Many MANY more shots at throwing more in the bullpen and working with JF. Being able to throw 2 BP's between starts instead of 1 under JF and in this scenario, imo, would have a HUGE impact on the amount of progress, and the speed of that progress during the season. I know for a fact that someone like JF could turn the large number of extra 'practices' into very tangible and game altering results. That's a HUGE reason I think this would be incredibly beneficial both physically and mentally."

[brnt247]

I wouldn't be happy if we don't improve our rotation more. Glavine I guess is an improvement, but I wouldn't bet on him doing better this season than last, and Chuck James and Hampton are huge question marks and we won't know what to expect out of them.

This could very well be like last year where we have 2 #1 starters and a bunch of #5s again. We should focus on our biggest need, starting pitching. Getting 1 pitcher who is obviously on the downhill isn't quite going to get us to enough wins, especially with losing Andruw and Renteria. So now, our lineup and defense have taken a hit, and we only minorly improved our starting pitching.

[JayDonnelly10]

I wouldn't be happy if we don't improve our rotation more. Glavine I guess is an improvement, but I wouldn't bet on him doing better this season than last, and Chuck James and Hampton are huge question marks and we won't know what to expect out of them.

This could very well be like last year where we have 2 #1 starters and a bunch of #5s again. We should focus on our biggest need, starting pitching. Getting 1 pitcher who is obviously on the downhill isn't quite going to get us to enough wins, especially with losing Andruw and Renteria. So now, our lineup and defense have taken a hit, and we only minorly improved our starting pitching.

Losing Andurw hurts our offense? Not from last season!

and Escobar will be comparable to Renteria not in power numbers but in every other facet of the game

[mark4004]

Losing Andurw hurts our offense? Not from last season!

and Escobar will be comparable to Renteria not in power numbers but in every other facet of the game

WHAT?!.... first of all... I think Escobar hit his talent ceiling last season.. I think he's a good player and I believe he has the ability to hit what he did.. but I would more forcast a .280 season out of him.. I mean it will work with our offense.. but I would not be ready to go out on a limb and call him Edgar renteria with less power. Now the andruw thing from last season.. cant argue with ya.. as far as a lineup on paper.. we're losing a little by losing andruw.. b/c of his track record.

[absintheofmalaise]

I posted this on another board as well. I don't remember seeing this mentioned before. Could be wrong though.
I don't know if it's been mentioned yet, but a pitcher that I'd rather the Braves try to acquire instead of Glavine would be Matt Clement. After the laughter subsides let's look at some things.
1. He is coming off shoulder surgery and would probably cost less for a 1 year deal than Glavine since everyone knows he needs to prove himself again. any deal would need to be incentive laden. He would probably be open to having a team option year tacked on. 2. He pitched in two simulated games in September for the Red Sox and the said that he had his velocity, control and command back on all of his pitches. He was pronounced game ready, but didn't pitch because they were involved in a rather heated pennant race and had other options named Buchholz and Lester to eat innings and gain MLB experience 3. The only reason that Sox didn't have an interest in trying to re-sign him was because of the wealth of SPs they do have. 4. He would be returning to the NL and going to a team with a very good offense. Much better than the one he would go to in San Diego. That would lower the pressure threshold for him. 5. Clement will be cheaper than Glavine, giving the Braves a small degree of payroll flexibility.
I'm not sentimental about old baseball players coming back to the team they grew up with unless they can actually contribute something besides the sale of pink hats to all of the people who think you can re-capture the glory years. You root for the laundry. As we all know Glavine is in decline. How severe it is you won't know until April. If the reports on his arm are true, Clement would be able to give the Braves more effective innings and more innings overall than Glavine. If they were able to sign him to a 1 year deal with a team option year they would also have to avoid trying to replace a SP on the 2009 rotation.

[mark4004]

Upside with clement is higher than glavine more than likely given the age difference and some of the recent struggles Tommy has shown... Now.. let's look at one word to show why this is not a good idea... CONSISTENCY.... Glavine = automatic 200 IP... When you're looking at a back end of the rotation guy, that's what you want.. consistency.

[absintheofmalaise]

Until he got hurt here are his career IPs.
1999 180
2000 205
2001 169
2002 205
2003 201
2004 181
2005 191
Consistently in the 180-200IP range for probably less money and more potential to give you better innings going forward.
I was also looking at this with an eye towards 2009.

[farbisimo]

Upside with clement is higher than glavine more than likely given the age difference and some of the recent struggles Tommy has shown... Now.. let's look at one word to show why this is not a good idea... CONSISTENCY.... Glavine = automatic 200 IP... When you're looking at a back end of the rotation guy, that's what you want.. consistency.

Plus, what happens if Clement gets injured. Not to say he will, but who do you think is more likely to get injured? I don't want another Hampton situation in Atlanta, and I don't think Wren, nor any one who wants to see the Braves win a WS does either. Glavine may not pitch like he did in the 90's, but he's a sure bet to throw 200+ innings. With our offense getting better without Andruw to ground into double plays every time there's a rally, I can see Glavine winning at least 13 games this season. That's all the Braves need, is a solid 13 wins out of another pitcher. If the fourth and fifth pitchers can produce at least 25 wins, and add in the wins from the bullpen from last year, 29, that makes us a 102 game win team. Wren's doing a perfect job. He just has to make sure we resign Tex.

[SCchief]

I posted this on another board as well. I don't remember seeing this mentioned before. Could be wrong though.
I don't know if it's been mentioned yet, but a pitcher that I'd rather the Braves try to acquire instead of Glavine would be Matt Clement. After the laughter subsides let's look at some things.
1. He is coming off shoulder surgery and would probably cost less for a 1 year deal than Glavine since everyone knows he needs to prove himself again. any deal would need to be incentive laden. He would probably be open to having a team option year tacked on. 2. He pitched in two simulated games in September for the Red Sox and the said that he had his velocity, control and command back on all of his pitches. He was pronounced game ready, but didn't pitch because they were involved in a rather heated pennant race and had other options named Buchholz and Lester to eat innings and gain MLB experience 3. The only reason that Sox didn't have an interest in trying to re-sign him was because of the wealth of SPs they do have. 4. He would be returning to the NL and going to a team with a very good offense. Much better than the one he would go to in San Diego. That would lower the pressure threshold for him. 5. Clement will be cheaper than Glavine, giving the Braves a small degree of payroll flexibility.
I'm not sentimental about old baseball players coming back to the team they grew up with unless they can actually contribute something besides the sale of pink hats to all of the people who think you can re-capture the glory years. You root for the laundry. As we all know Glavine is in decline. How severe it is you won't know until April. If the reports on his arm are true, Clement would be able to give the Braves more effective innings and more innings overall than Glavine. If they were able to sign him to a 1 year deal with a team option year they would also have to avoid trying to replace a SP on the 2009 rotation.

AGREE AGREE AGREE, Glavine would be a reallly nice addition, but look at our "starting pitchers" for the upcoming, 2 of them will proablly retire after next season, Hampton, will more than likely sneeze and throw his wrist out for next season, so we do need some youth in the rotation, and I think clement would be a nice addition, and who else better for Clement to learn from than Smoltz and Glavine, his career could be revamped

[absintheofmalaise]

Hold it. You actually think the Braves can win 102 games? Granted, the NL is not a very strong league right now, but 102 games! Are you a gambler at all, because if you are I'd like to make a wager with you right now.

As far as injury risk goes, you can play "what if..." all day long with anyone. I really don't think that Clement is much more of an injury risk than Glavine is given the ages of both pitches. Clement has also not been under the managerial thumb of the pitcher killer for a few years now.

[JCStone7]

I don't think Smoltz has it in his direct plans to retire after 2008 SCchief

[nickzilla6066]

Upside with clement is higher than glavine more than likely given the age difference and some of the recent struggles Tommy has shown... Now.. let's look at one word to show why this is not a good idea... CONSISTENCY.... Glavine = automatic 200 IP... When you're looking at a back end of the rotation guy, that's what you want.. consistency.

Not really sure Glavine is a lock for 200 innings this year, he is going to hit the wall sooner or later, probably sooner. His stuff has already slipped markedly and it is only a matter of time before his house of cards comes crashing down. With that said, I hope that doesn't happen until say, 2009. Hopefully he can pull a Jamie Moyer trick for this year.

And once again, Chuck James is not a question mark, he is a solid 5, everyone should stop worrying about him. Plug him in at 5 and leave him be, worry more about who our 4 is going to be, I can't trust Hampton and J.J. is not proven even slightly yet.

[farbisimo]

Hold it. You actually think the Braves can win 102 games? Granted, the NL is not a very strong league right now, but 102 games! Are you a gambler at all, because if you are I'd like to make a wager with you right now.

As far as injury risk goes, you can play "what if..." all day long with anyone. I really don't think that Clement is much more of an injury risk than Glavine is given the ages of both pitches. Clement has also not been under the managerial thumb of the pitcher killer for a few years now.

I wouldn't bet on 102 games, haha. I just threw that number out there to show how good of an improvement Glavine would be to our rotation. It's definitely a possibility though, not going to rule it out. Guy can dream, can't he?

On another note, you must be insane to think that Clement can come into Atlanta and expect to pitch 180+ innings after not pitching over a year! Have you learned nothing from Hampton? Even if he does come back and stays healthy, this guy's never won 15 games his entire career!! Why on earth would you want him to come pitch for us and hope for him to win as many games as Glavine is to lose (8-9)? This wouldn't be a smart aqcuisition.

[MSU Bulldog]

Matt Clement, meet San Diego.

[SamtheBravesFan]

Wins are an extremely poor indication of how well a person pitches, that's all I'm going to say.

[absintheofmalaise]

I wouldn't bet on 102 games, haha. I just threw that number out there to show how good of an improvement Glavine would be to our rotation. It's definitely a possibility though, not going to rule it out. Guy can dream, can't he?

On another note, you must be insane to think that Clement can come into Atlanta and expect to pitch 180+ innings after not pitching over a year! Have you learned nothing from Hampton? Even if he does come back and stays healthy, this guy's never won 15 games his entire career!! Why on earth would you want him to come pitch for us and hope for him to win as many games as Glavine is to lose (8-9)? This wouldn't be a smart aqcuisition.

Let's see, so far we have you at thinking the Braves can win 102 games, even as a throwaway line this is a ridiculous statement.
We have you thinking that a player coming back from an injury can't recapture his effectiveness over an entire season based on the history of one player(Hampton).
Have any other pitchers come back from not having pitched for a year due to an injury and pitched 180 innings?
You also seem to think that how many games a pitcher wins is how you measure whether he's a good pitcher or not. That's three strikes.
If you're going to use wins as a stat to evaluate a pitcher you also need to look at his run support and what kind of defense he had behind him. You also need to look at how many unearned runs were scored in addition to his ERA. Not to mention looking at the park he pitched in for the majority of his home games-Wrigley.

[brnt247]

Not really sure Glavine is a lock for 200 innings this year, he is going to hit the wall sooner or later, probably sooner. His stuff has already slipped markedly and it is only a matter of time before his house of cards comes crashing down. With that said, I hope that doesn't happen until say, 2009. Hopefully he can pull a Jamie Moyer trick for this year.

And once again, Chuck James is not a question mark, he is a solid 5, everyone should stop worrying about him. Plug him in at 5 and leave him be, worry more about who our 4 is going to be, I can't trust Hampton and J.J. is not proven even slightly yet.

Glavine is no longer a #3 starter. He had a 1.41 WHIP, 4.45 ERA. James had pretty much the same season as Glavine and it was like this the majority of the year because I remember making this comparison several times. We cannot expect Glavine to just fix our starting pitching problems, especially because I would bet he doesn't even have as good of a season this year. He is on the decline and you cannot expect him to be the Glavine he was for Atlanta in the past.

As much as you hate Andruw and how bad he did last year he did post a .311 OBP and 26 HR. Whomever we get out there in center this year isn't guaranteed to do this well, and whomever it is will certainly be a downgrade with the glove and the arm out in center.

Now for Escobar, I am still not sold on him. I loved what he did for the Braves last year, he was a great spark and always had solid contact. But to say he will be as good as Renteria is a stretch, when Edgar was healthy he was a top 3 SS in the NL and Escobar won't get there for a while. If he proves me wrong then awesome, but I think we saw the peak of what he can do last year.


Of course, I'm going to wait out and see what the Braves do during the offseason before I say we are in the same place we were in this year. However, if we don't get a very solid CF and make a deal for another GOOD starting pitcher then I'm sorry to say we will be.

[CB1]

http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/news/story?id=3114107

Braves offer contract.

[farbisimo]

Let's see, so far we have you at thinking the Braves can win 102 games, even as a throwaway line this is a ridiculous statement.
We have you thinking that a player coming back from an injury can't recapture his effectiveness over an entire season based on the history of one player(Hampton).
Have any other pitchers come back from not having pitched for a year due to an injury and pitched 180 innings?
You also seem to think that how many games a pitcher wins is how you measure whether he's a good pitcher or not. That's three strikes.
If you're going to use wins as a stat to evaluate a pitcher you also need to look at his run support and what kind of defense he had behind him. You also need to look at how many unearned runs were scored in addition to his ERA. Not to mention looking at the park he pitched in for the majority of his home games-Wrigley.

Lets set the record straight. I threw out 102 games from the number of wins coming from our bullpen lasat year. Having a more consisten starting rotation, you'll see that number drastically decrease. I do, however, think it's possible to win 90+ games.

Just some names off the top of my head that couldn't make their way back from their season ending injuries would be, oh, say Kerry Wood, and Mark Prior. Heard of them?

I just want to compare Glavine's 2007 season with one of Clement's best season's in 2005:

Clement: 191 IP, 97 ERs, 18 HRs, 146 K's, 4.57 ERA, 1.36 WHIP, and a .260 BA.
Glavine: 200.1 IP, 99 ER, 23 HRs, 89 K's, 4.45 ERA, 1.41 WHIP, and a .280 BA.

Similar numbers, but you have to factor in Glavine's terrible end of the season last year, and the fact that he produces these numbers consistently. That was Clement's best year. The only way this would be acceptable is if we brought him in on a one/two year deal with incentives for innings pitched. That way, if he is a bust, it's no sweat off our back. But why would you do that when you already have a question mark with Hampton, and you still have a center field void to fill, and the chance at resigning Mahay. What would be more beneficial, Mahay or Clement?

Isn't Wrigley a pitchers park, btw?

[JCStone7]

Isn't Wrigley a pitchers park, btw?

Actually it changes day-to-day. Depends on the wind blowing in or out.

[Hobbes]

Glavine's last two starts really skewed his numbers. Take those out and he had:

32 starts, 3.97 ERA, 1.36 WHIP

I know you can play that game with any pitcher, but the last two games of the season really disguise his true numbers for the season. Now I'm not a big fan of bringing back Glavine - I'd rather get a better pitcher - but he wasn't as bad last year as that 4.45 ERA and 1.41 WHIP would tend to indicate.

[Gibby]

The debate continues as to whether we'll get another starting pitcher. I was on the "no, we won't boat." But then again, I think Wren really wants to impress, so I was leanin towards we probably will. I know youre prob. tired of me going on about it, but I've been thinking. Maybe it all depends on how Hampton does in the AFL. If hell freezes over, and he's healthy and pitches well, maybe we don't need another starter. If he gets hurt, of course we'd go get another one. But if Hampton is healthy and successful through the AFL, should we still sign another SP? I mean, that's a pretty strong 1-4.

[Scalpel19]

This will not be the last attempted move for starting pitching. FW has been working the phones a lot the past 48 hrs. I expect something big to happen just before, during, or after the winter meetings in a couple of weeks.

[Enoch]

Well, we already knew we were going to lose our first round pick, but this all but confirms it. Ack, I wish Glavine wasn't a type A FA.

[Hobbes]

Well, we already knew we were going to lose our first round pick, but this all but confirms it. Ack, I wish Glavine wasn't a type A FA.
It wouldn't be so bad if Andruw hadn't crapped the bed and whiffed his way to a "B" status. We could have replaced those picks.

[GrandMasterB]

The debate continues as to whether we'll get another starting pitcher. I was on the "no, we won't boat." But then again, I think Wren really wants to impress, so I was leanin towards we probably will. I know youre prob. tired of me going on about it, but I've been thinking. Maybe it all depends on how Hampton does in the AFL. If hell freezes over, and he's healthy and pitches well, maybe we don't need another starter. If he gets hurt, of course we'd go get another one. But if Hampton is healthy and successful through the AFL, should we still sign another SP? I mean, that's a pretty strong 1-4.

It's only a pretty strong 1-4 if Hampton manages to stay healthy. If there's anything the Braves should have learned over the past couple seasons, it would be not to rely so much on the health of Mike Hampton.

Like the old Chinese proverb says, "He who counts on Hampton, gets Redman and misses playoffs." Or something like that...

[Hobbes]

It's only a pretty strong 1-4 if Hampton manages to stay healthy. If there's anything the Braves should have learned over the past couple seasons, it would be not to rely so much on the health of Mike Hampton.

Like the old Chinese proverb says, "He who counts on Hampton, gets Redman and misses playoffs." Or something like that...
Plus, Hampton was hardly an ace even when he was healthy for us. A combination of a pitcher who was already overrated, is two years removed from pitching, and is a continuing injury risk doesn't make for an encouraging outlook on his spot in the rotation.

[nickzilla6066]

...As much as you hate Andruw...

Now for Escobar, I am still not sold on him....

Of course, I'm going to wait out and see what the Braves do during the offseason before I say we are in the same place we were in this year. However, if we don't get a very solid CF and make a deal for another GOOD starting pitcher then I'm sorry to say we will be.

Wait, I'm confused, where did I say I hate Andruw? :confused: I didn't even mention him in the post you quote, though it is true I don't mind him leaving despite your very truthful statement that whoever we'll have in CF next year won't be as good as him, the only real benefit is financial.

I would also have to agree about Escobar. I don't like moving a steady veteran who was premier player at his position in favor of some kid who had one good half-season but maybe the kids we got in return will impress and hopefully our Cuban friend will continue to rake. I always tend to assume prospects won't work out but, hey, can't wait to see, err, hear, err, how the hell will I know anymore without TBS? Guess I'll just have to trust descriptions in our game threads next year.

As for next year I would have to disagree about CF, I think our offense will be fine even with a weak CF. A little weaker than this year, probably, but good enough to win so long as our pitching holds up. I am sure that virtually everyone except maybe Wren would agree with you that we need another starter and one better than Tom Glavine.

[josephw000]

Wait, I'm confused, where did I say I hate Andruw? :confused: I didn't even mention him in the post you quote, though it is true I don't mind him leaving despite your very truthful statement that whoever we'll have in CF next year won't be as good as him, the only real benefit is financial.

I would also have to agree about Escobar. I don't like moving a steady veteran who was premier player at his position in favor of some kid who had one good half-season but maybe the kids we got in return will impress and hopefully our Cuban friend will continue to rake. I always tend to assume prospects won't work out but, hey, can't wait to see, err, hear, err, how the hell will I know anymore without TBS? Guess I'll just have to trust descriptions in our game threads next year.

As for next year I would have to disagree about CF, I think our offense will be fine even with a weak CF. A little weaker than this year, probably, but good enough to win so long as our pitching holds up. I am sure that virtually everyone except maybe Wren would agree with you that we need another starter and one better than Tom Glavine.


Needing another starter is great, affording one is not so great. What great starter can we get this year? The best ones come up next year as far as I can tell. So "doing what you can with what you have" is a phrase I'd like to use here, and I think the Braves are going an ok job....

If Glavine can go 170-200 innings and win us 10-12 games or more then this is a HUGE bargain for us, considering last year I dont think our 4-5 starters combined hit the 200 inning mark....So I don't understand how he isn't a welcome addition especially at the price I've seen, 7-8 million?...

Escobar. A lot of people arent sold on the kid, who can be with a half year at the majors. But I think this kids didferent mainly because of his work ethic, patience and hustle. I think he can possibly be a mainstay at this level with us for years to come, solely based on the three things I named. Power will come, his D will improve and if he can hit at if not close to the level he did this past year, it's a win win for us. That was a very good trade for both teams I think. I trust that SS position to him, and hes got another good cat on his tail if he bombs in Lilibridge. But I doubt we get that far ;)

[nickzilla6066]

Plus, Hampton was hardly an ace even when he was healthy for us. A combination of a pitcher who was already overrated, is two years removed from pitching, and is a continuing injury risk doesn't make for an encouraging outlook on his spot in the rotation.

All true. I almost convinced myself that he might end up being the odd man out for the rotation but then I really thought about it and am convinced that the Braves could hardly stand having a 15 million dollar reliever not named Rivera. I actually have some hope that if he is healthy he'll be good though, at least league average or slightly better if he can recapture his form.

[Jsh1284]

Forgive the old saying, but I'm not counting my chickens before they hatch .. nor am I going to say we will OR will not be getting another pitcher. Scalpel is usually right about this type of thing, though. I'll be waiting for the winter meetings.

[nickzilla6066]

Needing another starter is great, affording one is not so great.

If Glavine can go 170-200 innings and win us 10-12 games or more then this is a HUGE bargain for us, considering last year I dont think our 4-5 starters combined hit the 200 inning mark....So I don't understand how he isn't a welcome addition especially at the price I've seen, 7-8 million?...



Need is still there though, thankfully the Mets and Phils have the same need and aren't likely to fill it either. This offseason it doesn't seem likely that we could sign or even trade for another solid guy. Smoltz, Hudson, Glavine, James or Hampton(?), insert one of the others. Seems winning, maybe even solid if all are healthy, probably better than our competitors. Let us wait and see I suppose.

I have already accepted Glavine as being the last big move. Incidentally though, I keep hearing that he is an "innings eater." Given his age should we really let him stretch it out too much? Looking at his game log from 2007 I might be tempted to argue that we should avoid the possibility of overworking him given how good he was through the All-Star break, especially if our pen shapes up strong enough (if only Gonzo weren't hurt....).

BTW, what do people think the odds are of Carlyle surviving in any aspect?

[josephw000]

Forgive the old saying, but I'm not counting my chickens before they hatch .. nor am I going to say we will OR will not be getting another pitcher. Scalpel is usually right about this type of thing, though. I'll be waiting for the winter meetings.

I havent seen him be wrong yet...he called a trade of Villareal the day before it happened so who knows, its a long time before baseball again and a lot can happen.

Need is still there though, thankfully the Mets and Phils have the same need and aren't likely to fill it either. This offseason it doesn't seem likely that we could sign or even trade for another solid guy. Smoltz, Hudson, Glavine, James or Hampton(?), insert one of the others. Seems winning, maybe even solid if all are healthy, probably better than our competitors. Let us wait and see I suppose.

I have already accepted Glavine as being the last big move. Incidentally though, I keep hearing that he is an "innings eater." Given his age should we really let him stretch it out too much? Looking at his game log from 2007 I might be tempted to argue that we should avoid the possibility of overworking him given how good he was through the All-Star break, especially if our pen shapes up strong enough (if only Gonzo weren't hurt....).

BTW, what do people think the odds are of Carlyle surviving in any aspect?

Glavine broke 200 innings last year, I dont see why he cant give us 170 or so and with a "theoretical on paper" better offense for a whole year than we had last year and maybe a lot more wins...

[nickzilla6066]

...Glavine broke 200 innings last year, I dont see why he cant give us 170 or so and with a "theoretical on paper" better offense for a whole year than we had last year and maybe a lot more wins...

I don't argue against that, just wonder if he might prove more effective down the stretch with conscious limitation of his workload early in the season, if possible of course. God knows that 2 years ago such could never happen with the immortals Remlinger and Reitsma holding down the pen.

[tkane11]

IF Hampton is healthy. That is a big IF. I just expect him to be hurt every year, and if he is healthy the whole year than that will just be a plus.

[Jsh1284]

Agreed on Hampton. However if he does come back as expected, that'll be a hugeee plus for our rotation. I mean, Hampton as a #4, James as a #5? That's a pretty nice looking staff. I won't be jumping to conclusions about Mike this year though. I made that mistake last season and got burned.

[josephw000]

I won't be jumping to conclusions about Mike this year though. I made that mistake last season and got burned.


As have all of us....for 2 years really ;)

Assume Hampton doesnt pitch, or pitches poorly, then I still like our staff...if he pitches well, thats just that much better we'd be...potentially 5 10+ game wiiners and maybe 2 or 3 15+ game wiiners...who knows though really? But I bet on him not playing, that way anything he gives us is better than what I expect.

[Hobbes]

Incidentally though, I keep hearing that he is an "innings eater." Given his age should we really let him stretch it out too much? Looking at his game log from 2007 I might be tempted to argue that we should avoid the possibility of overworking him given how good he was through the All-Star break, especially if our pen shapes up strong enough (if only Gonzo weren't hurt....).
He's a soft-tosser with an easy motion. He should be able to approach the 200-inning mark without too much problem. Of course, he could flame out at the end like he did with the Muts this year.

[JCStone7]

Reading thru old threads, so far it seems that Glavine was the last pitching move.

[gobravez]

Reading thru old threads, so far it seems that Glavine was the last pitching move.

Matt Desalvo and Jeff Ridgeway?!?!?!:D

[McCarroll21]

Reading thru old threads, so far it seems that Glavine was the last pitching move.
Jose Ascanio for Will Ohman and Omar Infante

[zstipe]

Well nickzilla,

Considering the fact that you had your doubts about Tommy being an "innings eater" and I put the quotation marks on purpose. Tommy Glavine has never been on the disabled list, so if you can find an "innings eater" like Tom Glavine in the 90's and hell, even the 2000's that hasn't been more consistent. Then I might just buy you a cookie b/c Tommy has been the most reliable starter than we have seen. Especially in the steroid era, you do not see too many constantly healthy ballplayers like Tom Glavine anymore. You obviously didn't watch any of the games last year when we sucked ass after Smoltz and Hudson pitched 1 & 2 for us.

[McCarroll21]

Well, zstipe, since you're arguing with a post that was posted 3.5 months before you even registered for the site, I'm sure you won't get much of an answer.

Not sure why this thread was pulled up. All it's going to do is be re-hashing crap that doesn't need to be talked about in March (all of us bored with the off-season and hoping we'd be active in the off-season). People who respond to posts in this thread are going to get nothing. The people who posted in here don't even know what they were thinking at the time of the post made in this thread.

[JCStone7]

Not sure why this thread was pulled up. All it's going to do is be re-hashing crap that doesn't need to be talked about in March (all of us bored with the off-season and hoping we'd be active in the off-season). People who respond to posts in this thread are going to get nothing. The people who posted in here don't even know what they were thinking at the time of the post made in this thread.

Sorry, it's just fun following guests around and this was one of them.