Chipper Comments on Wright Getting Gold Glove

[jschafer5]

Braves 3B Chipper Jones on David Wright winning the Gold Glove award, as quoted by David O’Brien of the Atlanta Journal-Constitution…

“When I found out (Wright won) I was speechless, for quite some time. Certainly the guys with the least amount of errors and best fielding percentage quite obviously didn’t win it…”

“I wouldn’t have been disappointed had someone like Feliz or Ramirez won it. I’m a little confused by the final tally — that’s a head-scratcher for me.”

Wright didnt deserve it...


Zimmerman: 23 Errors, .995 Fielding %
Feliz: 11 Errors, .973 Fielding %
Ramirez: 10 Errors, .972 Fielding %
Jones: 9 Errors, .971 Fielding %
Rolen: 22 Errors, .969 Fielding %
Atkins: 13 Errors, .963 Fielding %
Bautista: 16 Errors, .958 Fielding %
Wright: 21 Errors, .954 Fielding %

But he certainly has a reason to be upset, and he doesnt even mention himself, Feliz and Ramirez rather. Notice, 7 people have a beter fielding percentage, and only Rolen had more errors (1 more), than Wright...I might be able to find some more (Those are the ones that have at played at least 800 innings at 3B).

[Zack]

That is unbelievable. I hadn't seen the numbers until now. That is just not right.

[SamtheBravesFan]

This is what the Gold Glove is all about: name recognition and reputation. Even our own Jeff Francoeur benefitted from that somewhat.

[HeidiBee21]

This is what the Gold Glove is all about: name recognition and reputation. Even our own Jeff Francoeur benefitted from that somewhat.

Sad. so sad, but true.

[BGarrett7]

"Certainly the guys with the least amount of errors and best fielding percentage quite obviously didn’t win it."

Respect for Chipper dropping...

[Chris_Moderato]

The Gold Glove is about as meaningful as the Oscar. It's not about who is the best, it's about who is the easiest pick. The no-brainer. Pedro Feliz probably should have won. Oh well.

[milbraves]

"Certainly the guys with the least amount of errors and best fielding percentage quite obviously didn’t win it."

Respect for Chipper dropping...

absolutely. he may be right and all, but that's just uncalled for. same reason i lost alot of respect for pujols last season. there's never any need to go all Kanye West and act like a baby in the press because you weren't recognized for your achievements with a golden statue.

[Chris_Moderato]

absolutely. he may be right and all, but that's just uncalled for. same reason i lost alot of respect for pujols last season. there's never any need to go all Kanye West and act like a baby in the press because you weren't recognized for your achievements with a golden statue.


He's got a point. He may not have been asserting that he himself deserved the award. David Wright did not deserve the Gold Glove, if the Gold Glove stands for anything.

[jschafer5]

He's got a point. He may not have been asserting that he himself deserved the award. David Wright did not deserve the Gold Glove, if the Gold Glove stands for anything.

Yea, I agree. He never says that he deserves it, just that Wright did really deserve it.

[HeidiBee21]

He's got a point. He may not have been asserting that he himself deserved the award. David Wright did not deserve the Gold Glove, if the Gold Glove stands for anything.
which is unfortunatly doesn't. IMO the "award" is bogus. Wright should NEVER have gotten the award.

[charpotsss]

i don't think chipper's comments were out of line. maybe borderline though. if he had the highest fielding percentage, then that first one may have been uncalled for, but he definitely wasn't singling himself out as deserving it. wonder if he commented on wright's slugger award as well?

[BGarrett7]

... if the Gold Glove stands for anything.Which it doesn't.

End of discussion.

[SamtheBravesFan]

i don't think chipper's comments were out of line. maybe borderline though. if he had the highest fielding percentage, then that first one may have been uncalled for, but he definitely wasn't singling himself out as deserving it. wonder if he commented on wright's slugger award as well?

Even if Chipper was saying a backhanded comment towards Wright, how can we condemn him if we believe the same thing? Just because it got published in a newspaper?

[BGarrett7]

It may have been a bit backhanded, but even if Chipper was saying a backhanded comment towards Wright, how can we condemn him if we believe the same thing?We aren't professional athletes, nor will our comments make it into the national media. We can conduct ourselves in a much more open, opinionated manner than Chipper ever should.

[Rick]

Some quick points about the Gold Glove :

The voting is done by the managers and coaches . They don't look at any stats like errors or fielding pct. , much less any sabermetric stats . They go strictly by what they see with their own eyes on the field (actually a good idea since there are no reliable stats for fielding anyway ) . But the main reason they do it this way is time .
Kevin Kennedy on XM said he filled out his ballot in 15 or 20 minutes because he had a game to manage that night and that was what he was getting paid for . He said he never looked up stats .

So how well does it work ? Over a stretch of years it is accurate but not so much for any one year . I think they look at the award as " who is the best fielder at each position ", not as " who had the best YEAR fielding at each position ". For example , most people who really keep up with baseball know that Troy Tulowitzki had the best year fielding at shortstop in NL . So why didn't he get the Gold Glove ? Because not enough managers and coaches saw him play , especially those in other divisions who only played Colorado 6 times . But word gets around and if he keeps it up, he will win a GG in the next year or so and then he could win it 6 or 8 years in a row .

So the Gold Glove may be a year or so behind but it eventually recognizes the best fielders .

[C-Dawg]

"Certainly the guys with the least amount of errors and best fielding percentage quite obviously didn’t win it."

Respect for Chipper dropping...

Haha! Yea I knew you'd love that. But regardless, you really don't need any stats to see that this is a total farce. Hell I'm a better defensive 3B than he.

[C-Dawg]

They go strictly by what they see with their own eyes on the field

Well hell...I'm all for this, but are they effing blind?

[Corvette]

It is a shame they voters are this dumb, but can you really expect them to elect Pedro Feliz as the gold glove third baseman?

[Hobbes]

Haha! Yea I knew you'd love that. But regardless, you really don't need any stats to see that this is a total farce. Hell I'm a better defensive 3B than he.
But wait...he went back on a shallow pop and made a diving barehand catch. He must be a great defender!


I've actually seen several Mets fans use that sole play as their justification for his defensive excellence.

[broke]

Which it doesn't.

End of discussion.

agreed.........gold glove = poopy flavored popsicle

[SamtheBravesFan]

We aren't professional athletes, nor will our comments make it into the national media. We can conduct ourselves in a much more open, opinionated manner than Chipper ever should.

Well, I disagree. Just because you become famous doesn't mean you lose your right to an opinion. If there is any problem to be had with this comment Chipper made, he will pay the price somehow.

You can lose some respect for him if you want, but I won't.

[Enoch]

Which it doesn't.

End of discussion.

Then why is your respect for chipper dropping? You realize this makes little sense......

[GrandMasterB]

Well, I disagree. Just because you become famous doesn't mean you lose your right to an opinion. If there is any problem to be had with this comment Chipper made, he will pay the price somehow.

You can lose some respect for him if you want, but I won't.

Agreed. I'd much rather hear an opinionated athlete than another cliche robot. That's the thing I like about Chipper, and Smoltz too....they let you know what's on their mind.

[SamtheBravesFan]

I realize that what Chipper said sounds like sour grapes, but I don't expect any more of him than I expect from myself or any poster here on BN just because he plays third base for the Braves. We're all human, and we all have opinions. Some just voice them "louder" than others.

[brnt247]

Chipper is one of the only players in the league that calls out the MLB. Many of you say you lose respect for him when he does so, but he has been right every time this year. Was the scheduling unfair for the Braves and Mets compared to the Phillies? Yes absolutely. Is A Rod or anyone who comes close to the home run record in the near future going to have a shadow over their head? Yes, the will. Does Wright deserve to have the gold glove this year? Not a chance in hell.

If no one calls the league out on its mistakes they will continually happen, maybe this won't change it but it will show that a knowledgable and respectable veteran doesn't agree with some of its positions.

[HeidiBee21]

Chipper is one of the only players in the league that calls out the MLB. Many of you say you lose respect for him when he does so, but he has been right every time this year. Was the scheduling unfair for the Braves and Mets compared to the Phillies? Yes absolutely. Is A Rod or anyone who comes close to the home run record in the near future going to have a shadow over their head? Yes, the will. Does Wright deserve to have the gold glove this year? Not a chance in hell.

If no one calls the league out on its mistakes they will continually happen, maybe this won't change it but it will show that a knowledgable and respectable veteran doesn't agree with some of its positions.
Brnt FTW!
I agree 100%. Someone had to say something. At least Chipper had the balls to do it.

[C-Dawg]

Chipper is one of the only players in the league that calls out the MLB. Many of you say you lose respect for him when he does so, but he has been right every time this year.

I think he was saying that he lost respect for chipper not because he called out Wright, but rather because he cited Wright's fielding % in so doing. We KNOW how B hates that stat prolly more than any other.

[BGarrett7]

Then why is your respect for chipper dropping? You realize this makes little sense......The reason my respect for him dropped was because he was putting faith in hollow stats like fielding percentage and errors.

[SamtheBravesFan]

The reason my respect for him dropped was because he was putting faith in hollow stats like fielding percentage and errors.

Oh, that's all? Heh, and I thought it was something more serious than that.

Unfortunately for Chipper, Wright's RF9 and lgRF9 clobber his.

[Hobbes]

The reason my respect for him dropped was because he was putting faith in hollow stats like fielding percentage and errors.
I thought that was your original point, but then the direction of the conversation changed and I figured I misunderstood you original post.

Personally, I don't hold it against a player for not being familiar with more sophisticated stats, particularly defensive stats. Their job is to play baseball, not identify the most suitable methods for evaluating players.

I hold it against sportswriters much more when they rely on crappy statistical methods, particularly when those writers vote for awards based on those stats (wins for Cy Young, for example). Those guys should be honing their ability to evaluate players properly.

[BGarrett7]

Oh, and I would personally like to thank Enoch for giving me three separate pieces of negative rep for my replies in this thread despite not adding anything at all to the discussion himself. Top notch work there, buddy.

[milbraves]

Clearly, many Braves fans are incapable of seeing anything that the great chipper jones does as inappropriate, stupid, or childish, all three of which describe this latest rant. So Larry felt he had to call out David Wright because he didn't deserve his Gold Glove award. And you all have been saying that he wasn't necessarily saying he deserved the award himself, which is awfully naive. If he was merely trying to point out the inequities of the Gold glove voting system, he'd have probably brought up the fact that Jeff Francouer won a less deserved Gold Glove. This voting isn't about real defensive talent, but percieved defensive talent. Everyone knows that until they change the voting system, that's how it'll be. Derek Jeter won a gold glove, and that's proof they don't mean anything. If a guy gets late jumps and ends up flopping all over the place to come up with plays, then the perception is that he's a better defender than the guy who fields the same play effortlessly. The GG award is about flashy play and name recognition (playing in NY helps), not true talent. It's always been that way, but now that it worked out so that Chipper didn't win the prize he thought he deserved, he feels the need to point out what we've all known for years. This award is meaningless.
does anyone out there really believe chipper was saying simply that wright didn't deserve the award, and not saying that chipper deserved it? come on, that's naive. I can't respect Chipper for shitting on David Wright's achievement by saying it was undeserved. He didn't give the Gold Glove to himself, he was awarded it by the MLB coaches and managers. Fair and Square.

[C-Dawg]

This voting isn't about real defensive talent, but percieved defensive talent.

That's my problem though....how could anyone perceive that Wright was deserving of the gold glove. I have no idea what the stats say, but I watched him botch enough key plays to know that he is not worthy. I am certainly not a Chipper fan, but I have to admit that he plays some damn fine defense. Nothing flashy....he's not gonna move much to get a ball, but his throws are about as automatic as the sun rising in the east....particularly on the barehanded, charging play.

[milbraves]

That's my problem though....how could anyone perceive that Wright was deserving of the gold glove. I have no idea what the stats say, but I watched him botch enough key plays to know that he is not worthy. I am certainly not a Chipper fan, but I have to admit that he plays some damn fine defense. Nothing flashy....he's not gonna move much to get a ball, but his throws are about as automatic as the sun rising in the east....particularly on the barehanded, charging play.

That's kinda my point. we all know he didn't earn it. he probably even knows it. it really just goes to show that either the NL coaches aren't too bright, or they put very little thought into their GG ballots, or a little of both. i just think that pointing it out in the way chip did was singling out David Wright undeservedly and unsportsmanlike.

[josephw000]

Chippers comments were fine and not "kanyeish" at all, Kanye would cry all day about stuff thats almost unproveable. Stats dont lie, but its obvious that because managers vote on this stuff I'm sure there not putting their heart and soul into the voting. I think Chipper was very professional and simply voiced his displeasure with the fact. We can't be all uptight about this way back in the day day people talked a whole lot more smack than this and were upset cause he didn't think Wright deserved the award, not saying he himselfdeserved it necesarily? I think it was a legit comment and bravo to him.

[GrandMasterB]

George Bush hates Chipper Jones!

[MPH]

Bottom line on the GG's is that the major league managers and coaches pick the winners. They know the game and the players better than anybody else, so that makes sense. Fan polls, panels of sportswriters, or player votes might come up with different answers, but it would be hard to argue that the result would be more informed.

I think Chipper's point was that he saw no statistical basis for Wright's winning the GG. I don't either, so I agree with him. There is a ton of complex statiscal analysis you can look at to evaluate fielding, but none of it contradicts anything Chipper said. I'm not saying Chipper should have won, and neither did he - just that Wright didn't deserve it.

[charpotsss]

George Bush hates Chipper Jones!

ROLF http://media.scout.com/media/forums/emoticons/192/rotflmao.gif

[jones2510]

Brnt FTW!
I agree 100%. Someone had to say something. At least Chipper had the balls to do it.



:nod:

[731BravesFan]

BGarrett.. How is fielding percentage and errors hollow stats when the award is the Gold Glove?

That's like saying ERA and Wins are hollow stats in determining the Cy Young winner.

[BGarrett7]

I'll give you a longer, more drawn out post when I'm not at work and posting from my phone, but until then, I'll leave you with this...

Aaaaaaaahahahahahahahahaha!!!

Until then, please, everyone, if you have some form of common decency in you, PLEASE hold off on replying to his insanely jaded post. Just give me that, would ya.

[SamtheBravesFan]

I'll give you a longer, more drawn out post when I'm not at work and posting from my phone, but until then, I'll leave you with this...

Aaaaaaaahahahahahahahahaha!!!

Until then, please, everyone, if you have some form of common decency in you, PLEASE hold off on replying to his insanely jaded post. Just give me that, would ya.

Aw, but I wanted to. :(

[josephw000]

BGarrett.. How is fielding percentage and errors hollow stats when the award is the Gold Glove?

That's like saying ERA and Wins are hollow stats in determining the Cy Young winner.


uh oh......Im quite sure that BGarret as we speak is compiling a list of fancy stats that he will create a new name for that combine Fielding percentage, total chances and a bunch of other crap including the possibilities of full moons. Stand by......


Fielding percentage alone doesnt prove who deserves a gold glove and its an overrated award apparentlly, which I disagree about. Fact was there were a few cats who deserved it way more than Wright, but it didn't roll that way....and thats why this award has borderline become a joke, Rowand and Frenchy tie for a GG? I love Frenchy and think he did a great job, maybe good enough for a GG but Rowand was a hell of a CF last year....

[Enoch]

The reason my respect for him dropped was because he was putting faith in hollow stats like fielding percentage and errors.

Even if you use Wright's Zone Rating and Range Factor, it clearly shows that he was only about the 7th/8th best third baseman in the NL....

[C-Dawg]

uh oh......Im quite sure that BGarret as we speak is compiling a list of fancy stats that he will create a new name for that combine Fielding percentage, total chances and a bunch of other crap including the possibilities of full moons. Stand by......




I agree, and can't stand all these new age stats, etc, but I totally agree with him here about the uselesness of fielding % and number of erros. Let me explain it in a way that conveys the same message, but without all the mind-numbing stats and numbers. In softball, I used to play second base, and i thought I did a damn fine job. But I got moved to 3B due to the perception that my range was not good enough for 2B. Now, I know I've lost a step over the years, and I don't claim to be an Ozzie Smith--or even a Woodward for that matter. but the truth is that my range appeared to be worse than other guys because I actually gave an effort to get to balls that most other SS and 2B don't even attempt to go for. Thus, when the ball keeps tipping off the edge of my glove or going just out of my reach, it looks like I'm lead footed. In essence, my decent, above-average range that allows me to get real close to the ball, but not good enough to make a play on it, actually hurts me more than the guys who never even attempt to go for those balls....it creates a false perception.

Same thing applies with fielding % and number of errors. If I stand still and only go for the easy balls that are right to me, then I make very few errors. But if I go the extra mile and try to make great plays but foul them up, I am credited with more erros.

[HeidiBee21]

uh oh......Im quite sure that BGarret as we speak is compiling a list of fancy stats that he will create a new name for that combine Fielding percentage, total chances and a bunch of other crap including the possibilities of full moons. Stand by......

Oh lord have mercy. I'm really going to enjoy watching this when B gets on.

and now for my opinion.
It's done, it's over with, it's not going to change. Why bitch about it?

[josephw000]

Oh lord have mercy. I'm really going to enjoy watching this when B gets on.

and now for my opinion.
It's done, it's over with, it's not going to change. Why bitch about it?


No no dont take me wrong, most of the time I agree with BGarret, but stats now adays can be worked into almost any little thing to make someone look good or bad....I think we worry about minute stats a little too often. But BGarret I'm sure will have a very valid point

[HeidiBee21]

No no dont take me wrong, most of the time I agree with BGarret, but stats now adays can be worked into almost any little thing to make someone look good or bad....I think we worry about minute stats a little too often. But BGarret I'm sure will have a very valid point
I think I'm just going to sit back and enjoy the show. You both have extremely valid points, and I enjoy seeing what both of you have to say. I just think this will entertain me is all. Cheers to you! :beer: lol

[Enoch]

I just don't see what the big deal is. By any metric, Wright was not even in the top 5 defensively at his position. Chipper correctly pointed out that the gold glove awards are not given to the best defensive player......which is what they are there for. If the best defensive players are consistently ignored, which often happens in the gold glove process, then what is the point of giving out the award in the first place? Its a stupid system, and another silly thing the old boys' club (otherwise known as MLB) holds onto.

I'm sick of watching the Derek Jeter's win gold glove awards. When you suck as a fielder, YOU SUCK AS A FIELDER AND SHOULD NOT GET AN AWARD FOR IT!

[McCarroll21]

I don't think there is anyone here saying that Wright should have won the award, so I'm not sure why you are trying to bring that up. What people are saying is that the Gold Glove has been meaningless for years and Chipper should have just kept his mouth shut, as right or wrong as it may be.

At least David Wright played 3B, that's more than Palmeiro did one year when he won a gold glove at 1B.

[Enoch]

I don't think there is anyone here saying that Wright should have won the award, so I'm not sure why you are trying to bring that up. What people are saying is that the Gold Glove has been meaningless for years and Chipper should have just kept his mouth shut, as right or wrong as it may be.

At least David Wright played 3B, that's more than Palmeiro did one year when he won a gold glove at 1B.

If everyone here agrees that Wright should not have won the award, then there should be no reason for anyone to be "disappointed" in Chipper's comments. This is my point, and my comments were directed towards the BGarret debate and his use of sabremetric statistics.....

And to whoever dropped my reputation, at least come out and debate my points rather than dropping my reputation simply b/c you disagree or are holding a grudge. This is one of the major reasons I dislike the reputation system on message boards.

[McCarroll21]

The problem with Chipper's comment isn't that he said what may be the truth and what all of us are thinking, it's that he's being a little whiny bitch and using the media as his window to whine through.

[Enoch]

The problem with Chipper's comment isn't that he said what may be the truth and what all of us are thinking, it's that he's being a little whiny bitch and using the media as his window to whine through.

Okay, so even though he is correct in what he says, he is whining? Even though the gold glove award was once again given to inferior defenders, he is whining? I just do not get it. You can always call sour grapes on issues, but at some point, you have to say, well......he is right. Maybe he has a point. Maybe the system is flawed.

Do I think Chipper deserved the award? Hardly. However, the one time we get a player to make comments about how poorly the gold glove is selected, his own teams fans call him out. This sentimentality is why nothing changes in baseball. At least, this is my opinion. Feel free to disagree, but give me a chance to respond before hitting me with reputation points.....

[McCarroll21]

At least, this is my opinion. Feel free to disagree, but give me a chance to respond before hitting me with reputation points.....You mean, like the three separate times you've docked BGarrett's rep in this thread? And all within two minutes ... I hardly feel that he had a chance to respond between them. :) He got you once, you got him three times. w00t! Equality rules!

No one is saying Wright deserved the award, no one is saying the system isn't flawed. Actually, that's exactly what everyone is saying. BGarrett stated that he was going to give an example to prove why fielding percentage and errors shouldn't be the sole basis on handing out a gold glove, in no way did he state that he was going to defend Wright winning the award.

No it's not okay, but at the same time it doesn't matter. Speaking out to the media like that makes Chipper a whiny little bitch.

[milbraves]

Speaking out to the media like that makes Chipper a whiny little bitch.

true dat.
i've been saying that all along.

[HeidiBee21]

And McCarroll FTW!

Jesus, I love this place.

Chipper only made himself look like a sore loser.

[731BravesFan]

Still waiting, B.

[HeidiBee21]

Still waiting, B.
You are a brave brave soul.

[731BravesFan]

How am I a brave soul?

It's the fucking internet. I find it funny that people E-Ride some guy that they've never met who has more newfangled bullshit that he uses to "prove" himself right than I've ever seen.

[HeidiBee21]

Ok. I was just kidding around, sorry if I offended you. That was never my intention.

[731BravesFan]

Nah, none taken.. I just seriously don't see his point in this argument.

[Enoch]

You mean, like the three separate times you've docked BGarrett's rep in this thread? And all within two minutes ... I hardly feel that he had a chance to respond between them. :) He got you once, you got him three times. w00t! Equality rules!

No one is saying Wright deserved the award, no one is saying the system isn't flawed. Actually, that's exactly what everyone is saying. BGarrett stated that he was going to give an example to prove why fielding percentage and errors shouldn't be the sole basis on handing out a gold glove, in no way did he state that he was going to defend Wright winning the award.

No it's not okay, but at the same time it doesn't matter. Speaking out to the media like that makes Chipper a whiny little bitch.

Disagree with the above^^^^. To give you an analogy, if I am working as a salesman and sale the most amount of items, yet the highest sales award is given to someone who is only middle of the pack......I'm not allowed to point how silly the award is to begin with or I'm "whining". If Chipper didn't have a point or if Wright arguably was even in the top 5 of defensive third baseman, I could understand people calling him out. As it stands, neither is the case, and the silliness that is MLB awards continues. I can't wait till next year when Ryan Braun, Derek Jeter, Adam Dunn, and other fielders somehow snag the award (and yes I know that you agree with me that the award process is flawed...excuse the rant, trying to prove a point).

As for BGarret - I will say that I often disagree with him (which is fine), and I have never done anything but disagree with him. This time I decided to actually dock his reputation due to the lack of logic in his posts. His docking me reputation just proves how silly the whole reputation system is. He docked me points not for my posts, but because he was mad at me for giving him negative reputation. How childish. At least I had reasons for the reputation hits I made - that being he holds to irrational/silly standards (athletes have to use certain statistics when debating gold gloves even though the average fan has no idea what RF or ZR are......and that athletes cannot discuss the very awards used to decorate them but we can......).

[HeidiBee21]

Nah, none taken.. I just seriously don't see his point in this argument.
Oh good. I hate when I offend people. Eh...to each their own. I personally think you both have good arguments. :nod:

[HeidiBee21]

and that athletes cannot discuss the very awards used to decorate them but we can......).
Actually if what I've been told is correct, he's right. It the whole lovely bs called "Public Image"

Kinda like when they dress innapropriately (or other things as well) they get fined. YES Chipper should have an opinion and is certainly entitled to it. NO he should not have shared it in the manner he did.

[Tex4Prez]

Actually if what I've been told is correct, he's right. It the whole lovely bs called "Public Image"

Kinda like when they dress innapropriately (or other things as well) they get fined. YES Chipper should have an opinion and is certainly entitled to it. NO he should not have shared it in the manner he did.

yeah he couldve prob said it different but who can blame him he's probably just getting tired or the man love going on between MLB and the Mets. when david wrights brings in two awards (that probably weren't even deserved) and the numbers prove other wise then how can you not be upset about it. I don't blame chipper at all for what he said he's speaking the truth

[McCarroll21]

yeah he couldve prob said it different but who can blame him he's probably just getting tired or the man love going on between MLB and the Mets. when david wrights brings in two awards (that probably weren't even deserved) and the numbers prove other wise then how can you not be upset about it. I don't blame chipper at all for what he said he's speaking the truthMLB didn't issue either of the awards that Wright won.

Gold Gloves and Silver Sluggers are voted on by the coaches and managers.

[gobravez]

I guess B is still looking at all of the awesome new age stats? I'm no fan of the new age stats, and neither are most of the managers who vote on the award, I would guess. So it's kinda strange that chipper was near the top in F% and E's but still got beat out by wright.

I agree with 731, if you are looking at stats to determine how good a player is, then Fielding Percentage has to be the best stat to look at. I don't understand how you can question that, especially for an infielder. There are plenty of other things that voters look at or should look at, like all those plays that stats can't show like bare-handed plays that chipper is so good at. But what better stat is there?

[HeidiBee21]

yeah he couldve prob said it different but who can blame him he's probably just getting tired or the man love going on between MLB and the Mets. when david wrights brings in two awards (that probably weren't even deserved) and the numbers prove other wise then how can you not be upset about it. I don't blame chipper at all for what he said he's speaking the truth
it's like I said. He was NOT wrong for his opinion. I think he was wrong in the manner he prensented himself. All he did was make himself look like a sore loser seeking "poor me" attention. That is just my personal opinion, and I do respect yours.

[Tex4Prez]

it's like I said. He was NOT wrong for his opinion. I think he was wrong in the manner he prensented himself. All he did was make himself look like a sore loser seeking "poor me" attention. That is just my personal opinion, and I do respect yours.

i can understand that but i can see chippers frustration about it when he clearly has the better stats and is a little ticked about it. i can understand your point of view tho. thanks

[HeidiBee21]

i can understand that but i can see chippers frustration about it when he clearly has the better stats and is a little ticked about it. i can understand your point of view tho. thanks
I love it when people can disagree peacefully. Woohoo! -insert happy dance here- and yeah...if it were me, i'd be pissed and frustrated too.

[Tex4Prez]

I love it when people can disagree peacefully. Woohoo! -insert happy dance here- and yeah...if it were me, i'd be pissed and frustrated too.

it is good to argue in a calm enviorment thats when you know that two people can be civil and speak their minds. when you get some tool on here yellin and callin people names and everything you know that he wouldn't ever say any of that in person. anyways i know if i had a clearly better feilding percentage and everything i would prob speak my mind. Just my two cents.

[HeidiBee21]

it is good to argue in a calm enviorment thats when you know that two people can be civil and speak their minds. when you get some tool on here yellin and callin people names and everything you know that he wouldn't ever say any of that in person. anyways i know if i had a clearly better feilding percentage and everything i would prob speak my mind. Just my two cents.
Well said. Can I have 3 cents? You know, inflation and all..:nod:

[Preacher]

I have no problem with Chipper speaking on the injustice of Wright winning a Gold Glove; where is it that said when you become famous, you need to walk around on eggshells?

It's his opinion, and if he wants to share that opinion; then God bless him! He isn't doing anything we're not doing; he just has a larger audience.

That being said I think you can clearly see he was a little miffed about at the very least not being in the mix for the award.

two cents........

[Tex4Prez]

Well said. Can I have 3 cents? You know, inflation and all..:nod:

lol good one

[BGarrett7]

Still waiting, B.

I guess B is still looking at all of the awesome new age stats?Yeah, pardon me for being in the hospital for almost a week...

I agree with 731, if you are looking at stats to determine how good a player is, then Fielding Percentage has to be the best stat to look at. I don't understand how you can question that, especially for an infielder. There are plenty of other things that voters look at or should look at, like all those plays that stats can't show like bare-handed plays that chipper is so good at. But what better stat is there?How is fielding percentage a reliable stat?

Does it take into account the balls a fielder with a very limited range can't get to that an average fielder does? Does it take into consideration the type of pitching staff the player plays behind? How about the range of the players around them? Or the fact that errors and hits are completely subjective to the official scorer at every stadium? The fact you can't charge an error unless the ball doesn't actually make contact with the fielder's glove?

And just because all infields have the same dimensions doesn't mean they are necessarily the same. Just like playing LF at Fenway is a lot different from playing center at Coors, playing infield on a fast or slow infield can have a huge effect on what gets through and what an infielder can get to.

There simply is not a reliable defensive stat which is able to take all of these things into consideration, and just because fielding percentage is so accepted doesn't make it a true, accurate measure.

[MPH]

I just submitted a 3000 word article on this very topic to be considered for inclusion in the next issue of Between the Foul Poles. I can hardly wait to see the comments I get from you guys (yikes!).

Without giving away the whole article, it's certainly true there is no single definitive stat we can use to "prove" one fielder is better than another. There are just too many variables to consider. (In addition to the ones BGarrett mentioned, imagine comparing a shortstop on a team with four LH starters to one who pitches behind four RH starters - clearly one guy would have the advantage in total chances, putouts, double plays, etc.)

The best way to analyze fielding performance is to approach the numbers from several different angles and then reconcile the differences with common sense. Next to CERA, which is useful only in a very narrow set of circumstances, FPCT is probably the second-most misused stat in baseball.

[Rick]

I agree that fielding pct. is not always reliable but, as MPH says , other statistics on fielding are not always reliable either . What I disagree with is throwing out older stats as worthless . Leave them in and temper them with newer stats .

For example , the number of errors made won't necessarily tell you who is the best fielder but it goes a long way in telling you who is the worst . If you made the most errors at your position , you had a bad year and if you have the most over a period of years , you are a bad fielder - nuff said . Now people will say what if you have great range and get to a lot of balls , you may have a few more errors than another guy . That is true but not the most in the league ! Besides that is overblown - if a fielder shows great range and gets to a ball most guys would not reach, the scorer will realize that and will not give him an error if the ball bounces off his glove . He knows the average fielder would not even have gotten a glove on it .

BTW i bet I can tell you who made the most errors at 3b this year - I have not looked up any stats but I bet it is Miguel Cabrera of the Marlins . He is brutal at 3b. If he had won the Gold Glove , we should all quit and go home

[MPH]

Rick that's right, dismissing ANY stat as worthless is a mistake. All stats represent bits of data that can be used for some purpose, however limited it may be. The more we know about different kinds of stats - their computation, purpose, and application - the more they enhance our enjoyment of the game.

I'm outa here - gotta keep my powder dry until you guys start shooting at my article!

[josephw000]

Craziness...I agree that a stat is a stat and none are really worthless. BTW who determines a fielders range? Is there some great mathmaticial calculation? I gues if the guys at EA sports can do it, we can too....I dont see how you grade ones range, or assume that the player named could get to it, but another player couldnt or that one player might get to a bal lgreat, but 5 years later he's not getting to it as much....It's ridiculous....

Bad jumps, bad breaks all happen. In your prime at the position or not, I don't see where a lot of these fielding stats come from.

[MPH]

Craziness...I agree that a stat is a stat and none are really worthless. BTW who determines a fielders range? Is there some great mathmaticial calculation? I gues if the guys at EA sports can do it, we can too....I dont see how you grade ones range, or assume that the player named could get to it, but another player couldnt or that one player might get to a bal lgreat, but 5 years later he's not getting to it as much....It's ridiculous....

Bad jumps, bad breaks all happen. In your prime at the position or not, I don't see where a lot of these fielding stats come from.
LOL - yeah, where DOES all this crap come from?

Hang in there, Joseph, your questions are all good ones but the answers are too long and boring to post in a thread.

There really ARE answers, though, and you will have them soon - or at least my take on the current wisdom.

Fielding stats tend to be either oversimplistic or very complex, and it takes some knowledge base to figure out which are which. That's why I decided to tackle it in the magazine first - then we can all argue about it in an informed manner in the threads!

[MSU Bulldog]

I would like to see more players speak their mind period instead of getting all these "canned" speeches at the end of games and in interviews, "Well, you know, we did it as a team, or I would like to thank god, or without the support of the fans we would have never gotten this far, or you've just got to throw strikes, or thats why its a nine inning ballgame, anything can happen." Who on here hasn't heard enough of them to not be able to quote what their going to say. I would like for the players to be more real. I know thats not going to happen, but it would be a nice change of pace.

[tkane11]

Chipper has the best hands out of any other player in the league. I thought for sure that he would win. It is a shame.

[SamtheBravesFan]

Chipper has the best hands out of any other player in the league. I thought for sure that he would win. It is a shame.

It's all about the rep, my friend. And the fact that he has such a short range and doesn't go after too many balls to his sides, which is how flashy plays are usually made.

[Gibby]

It's all about the rep, my friend. And the fact that he has such a short range and doesn't go after too many balls to his sides, which is how flashy plays are usually made.

Yep. David Wright is the new "in" guy. He was on the cover of MLB The Show 07, he's in the commercials and crap, and apparently that's worth a Gold Glove.

[nickzilla6066]

I would like to see more players speak their mind period instead of getting all these "canned" speeches at the end of games and in interviews, "Well, you know, we did it as a team, or I would like to thank god, or without the support of the fans we would have never gotten this far, or you've just got to throw strikes, or thats why its a nine inning ballgame, anything can happen." Who on here hasn't heard enough of them to not be able to quote what their going to say. I would like for the players to be more real. I know thats not going to happen, but it would be a nice change of pace.

What do you want them to do? Crack a beer, smack the interviewing female reporter on her ass and ask her back to his hotel room? I think that is what real would probably get us. Hell, I guess that would be a hell of a lot better than the crap you mention though. I wish they would just do away with the player interviews anyway, players aren't ever going to have anything important to say, the only good ones are when the guy is a particularly amusing character.

[Hobbes]

I wish they would just do away with the player interviews anyway, players aren't ever going to have anything important to say, the only good ones are when the guy is a particularly amusing character.
I despise player interviews in any sport. They are entirely pointless and devoid of any useful information. I always tune away when it comes to the postgame interviews, because their perpetual vapidity grates on my nerves.

One of the only guys I will even listen to is Smoltz. He is one of the most intelligent and well-spoken players in baseball. He comes up with the occasional cliche, but he generally keeps the "athlete-speak" to a minimum.

[MPH]

... I always tune away when it comes to the postgame interviews, because their perpetual vapidity grates on my nerves..
"Perpetual vapidity." Perfect. :bow:

[Corey]

I cannot believe Chipper didn't win it. I thought he would have it by a long shot.

[Ol' Drippy]

IMO, Chipper's respectability took a big hit when he couldn't remain faithful to his wife... but there's no justification to lose respect for him because he spoke his mind on an issue that a lot of people happen to agree with. There is no way in hell that Wright should have won that award. A gold glove should be awarded for defensive excellence, not flashy plays. However, in a close race, those flashy plays should help to act as a tie-breaker. If Wright played for the Pirates, there's no way he would have won that award.

Anyway, almost every award that someone can earn is tainted in some way. Corruption is rife at every level of every business across the world.

[cjones1999]

I seriously think I would have done the same if I were in his position.