Francoeur wins his first gold glove

[jdu00743]

Per 680...:beer:

[McCarroll21]

w00t! That's awesome. An arm gets recognized instead of the people that "create" diving plays instead of "making" diving plays.

[cjones1999]

w00t! well someone has to win a gold glove since AJ ain't coming back:)

[jdu00743]

Also; AJ won his 10th, and Maddux his 17th!

[charpotsss]

congrats to frenchy! he deserves it. :beer:

[JayDonnelly10]

rotoworld.com

Andruw Jones was awarded his 10th National League Gold Glove on Tuesday.

There was a rare Gold Glove tie in the outfield, with Aaron Rowand and Jeff Francoeur both getting awards behind Jones and Carlos Beltran in the balloting. Greg Maddux won his 17th, while Orlando Hudson and Derrek Lee both earned their third. First-time winners were catcher Russell Martin, shortstop Jimmy Rollins and third baseman David Wright. Martin over Yadier Molina and Rollins over Omar Vizquel are surprises.


This is awesome! Frenchy deserves every bit of it!

[vnodnarb]

I'm glad he won it, I'm a huge Francoeur fan, but I can't say I think he deserves it. He has a great arm, but his range and the angles he takes are no better than average for an outfielder.

[SamtheBravesFan]

Chipper should have won the third base Gold Glove instead of David Wright.

Well, looks like our good ol' Frenchy has the rep thanks to his arm. Here's to more Gold Gloves in the future!

[JayDonnelly10]

Chipper should have won the third base Gold Glove instead of David Wright.

Well, looks like our good ol' Frenchy has the rep thanks to his arm. Here's to more Gold Gloves in the future!

I agree Chipper deserved it! 12 fewer errors

Feilding %'s
Chipper .971
Wright .954

[McCarroll21]

David Wright being a Gold Glover is a joke. Wright should be at first base, not third and certainly not second (put that in there because people had said he'd move to second for A-Rod).

[JCStone7]

w00t my new favorite Brave won Gold Glove!

[Boogotshot]

Congrats Frank. (never cared for the nickname frenchy)

[JCStone7]

Congrats Frank. (never cared for the nickname frenchy)

Call him "Franc the Tank"

[JayDonnelly10]

Congrats Frank. (never cared for the nickname frenchy)

Frenchy is definately better than calling him Frank!

[Hobbes]

Frenchy is definately better than calling him Frank!
Bleh, no it isn't. Frenchy is worse than any other nickname.

Anyway, it's a sad commentary on the state of outfield defense in the NL when Francoeur is winning gold gloves.

[JCStone7]

Bleh, no it isn't. Frenchy is worse than any other nickname.

Anyway, it's a sad commentary on the state of outfield defense in the NL when Francoeur is winning gold gloves.

There's that Met fan in you coming out. :rolleyes:

[SamtheBravesFan]

Bleh, no it isn't. Frenchy is worse than any other nickname.

Anyway, it's a sad commentary on the state of outfield defense in the NL when Francoeur is winning gold gloves.

Any credibility the award had was murdered grisly the day Rafael Palmiero won the AL first base Gold Glove in 1999. All the dumb choices for the award afterwards is just poking the corpse.

[gobravez]

Congrats to Frenchy!!

[Enoch]

David Wright won a gold glove.....hahaha. That is almost as bad as Jeter winning not one but TWO consecutive gold gloves.

I'm not surprised AJ won another gold glove. Statistically he was only +1 behind Beltran in the WHOLE league.

[Nasadega]

When I saw "Francoeur, Jones win gold gloves" on an email title, I thought it was some yoyo making crappy predictions on some site spamming me. I was totally not expecting that, but well congrats to him, I can't say he doesn't deserve it, he saved us some runs with his arm :nod:
Here's to a more in the future, Jeffrey! :beer:

When was the last time two gold gloves were awarded to two outfielders from the same team?

[josephw000]

I would say hes deserving of a gold glove. We knock his range but he made his fair share of good catches out there, it got to the point where anything hit his way I expected him to get to it. He deserves it, and thats good news for the young kid, hopefully one of many more to come....

[JCStone7]

5 errors, I'm sure most were on errant throws. I'm not complaining about his defense.

[JayDonnelly10]

When was the last time two gold gloves were awarded to two outfielders from the same team?

In the Nation League?

1994 Barry Bonds and Darren Lewis both playing for the Sf Giants won it!

This is also the first year 4 OF's were selected since Rowand and Frenchy ended in a tie, they gave them both the award!

[brnt247]

This is exactly why I hate this award. It is so unbelievable arbitrary they give it to whomever they choose and it seems as if it is completely random. How many Brave fans honestly were thinking that Jeff was going to win the Gold Glove? How many Mets fans thought that Wright was going to? You would think the fans that watch the player every day would be hyping it up and think they were deserving.

[Moogination]

Could anyone else believe that Francouer had 19 assists. Why do teams continue to run on him?? I know he airmails them occasionally, but I can't imagine its worth the risk. I'd imagine that after this year, the news may officially be out and we may start to see those assists creep downward, like they did for Vlad.

[Ol' Drippy]

Congrats Frank. (never cared for the nickname frenchy)

Poodle bites, poodle chews it

PS - How the fuck do you win a gold glove with a .954 fielding percentage? That's pathetic.

[vnodnarb]

Unfortunately, this probably raised the price for trying to extend Francoeur.

[RockTheShow]

Deserved it with that cannon.

[Hobbes]

Deserved it with that cannon.
Good defense requires a lot more than a strong arm.

[SamtheBravesFan]

Unfortunately, this probably raised the price for trying to extend Francoeur.

Psssh, like he can get THAT much more than McCann did. Maybe a $45 million contract similar to Brian's? I'd even do a $50 million one.

[SamtheBravesFan]

This is exactly why I hate this award. It is so unbelievable arbitrary they give it to whomever they choose and it seems as if it is completely random. How many Brave fans honestly were thinking that Jeff was going to win the Gold Glove? How many Mets fans thought that Wright was going to? You would think the fans that watch the player every day would be hyping it up and think they were deserving.

I actually thought that he'd be getting one at some point in his career. I just never thought it would be this soon.

[JCStone7]

What's the big deal with everybody? So you're saying you would rather have Jeremy Hermida, Jayson Werth, Shawn Green, Austin Kearns, Juan Encarnacion, Jacque Jones, Ryan Freel, Brian Giles and the likes patrolling RF in Turner???

Francoeur has done nothing but try to live up to the hype and yet ya'll still bash him? What do you want him to do next year win the Nobel Peace Prize? Give him a break...

[jschafer5]

Francoeur has done nothing but try to live up to the hype and yet ya'll still bash him? What do you want him to do next year win the Nobel Peace Prize? Give him a break...

Yea, bitch about Wright getting it.:D

But I agree that GG's aren't the greatest way of showing the best defense, but its not like Francoeur totally sucked...I think he deserves it.

[SamtheBravesFan]

I don't giving a flying fuck about "bad routes" either. Francoeur can run zig zags and spirals out there for all I care; just as long as he catches the ball, plays the angles right and gets good throws off.

[gobravez]

Francoeur has done nothing but try to live up to the hype and yet ya'll still bash him? What do you want him to do next year win the Nobel Peace Prize? Give him a break...


I feel the same way as you stoney. In 2006, everyone was saying that all French could do was hit homers or strike out. This year he proves them wrong by going opposite field and raising his BA to nearly .300 while drawing more walks and then everyone is complaining because he hit 19 homers. He wins the Gold Glove and now everyone is bashing him for it, saying that he sucks at fielding and his arm is the only thing that won him the award. I can't think of really any better fielders in RF in the NL than Francoeur. I mean he doesn't have the greatest range but he can go get them and his arm makes up for the rest. Every time a ball is hit to RF you see Jeff Francoeur out there, in all 162 games, busting his ass on every single play, yet it's still not good enough for you people.

I would like to say congrats to Jeff on an awesome year in both the field and at the plate, and thank you for listening to TP, and thank you for playing hurt even when you could easily take a day off.

[JCStone7]

Yea, bitch about Wright getting it.:D

But I agree that GG's aren't the greatest way of showing the best defense, but its not like Francoeur totally sucked...I think he deserves it.

I agree that Gold Gloves don't always go to the most deserved. But wasn't everyone bitching about AJ and his diminished defensive prowess and no one is complaining about his gold glove.

[BGarrett7]

In the Nation League?Mike Cameron and Ichiro each won for the '04 Mariners. They also won in '01. Oddly enough, Junior and Jay Buhner were the last AL duo before Ichiro and Cameron, in '96.

[JayDonnelly10]

Mike Cameron and Ichiro each won for the '04 Mariners. They also won in '01. Oddly enough, Junior and Jay Buhner were the last AL duo before Ichiro and Cameron, in '96.

Yeah I just looked it up for NL, was too lazy to go looking for the AL ones! Thanks though

[BGarrett7]

Just doing my part. :)

[Hobbes]

I can't think of really any better fielders in RF in the NL than Francoeur. I mean he doesn't have the greatest range but he can go get them and his arm makes up for the rest. Every time a ball is hit to RF you see Jeff Francoeur out there, in all 162 games, busting his ass on every single play, yet it's still not good enough for you people.
I don't think most people are criticizing his defense in general, just the idea that his defense is gold-glove caliber. In my mind, that award is meant to signify defensive excellence, not defensive competence. While Jeff is a thoroughly competent defender, I don't believe he is a premier defender.

Besides, he didn't just beat out all other right fielders, he beat out all other outfielders. IMO, the fact that he won either means somebody else was unjustly overlooked, or that there just isn't much defensive excellence in NL outfields.

I think his defense is perfectly fine for our needs, and certainly better than a lot of other right-field hacks as mentioned by Stoney. But evaluating his worth as a recepient of the Gold Glove award is a perfectly valid excercise that doesn't have to result in a love-him or hate-him judgement.

I agree that Gold Gloves don't always go to the most deserved. But wasn't everyone bitching about AJ and his diminished defensive prowess and no one is complaining about his gold glove.
Because even a diminished Andruw is a better defender than Francoeur.

[gobravez]

Besides, he didn't just beat out all other right fielders, he beat out all other outfielders. IMO, the fact that he won either means somebody else was unjustly overlooked, or that there just isn't much defensive excellence in NL outfields.


I think it's more of the later. It's hard to think of many great defenders in the NL right off the top of you're head.

[Rick]

This brings up a pet peeve of mine - Why do they lump all the outfielders together in the GG voting ? When the Gold Glove started in 1957, there was a separate Gold Glove for LF, CF and RF each year . Willie Mays usually won for CF , Clemente usually won for RF ,ETC. Outfielders almost never switch spots during the season and the skills needed are different for each spot ( RF requires a strong arm like Francoeur , LF does not so much ).

Another bad result from lumping them all together and just picking the 3 best is that you usually end up with all CFs - of course the CF is the best outfielder on any team , that's why he was put there . But that doesn't tell you who the best RF or LF was in any year .

To me, it would be like lumping all the middle infielders and picking the best fielders for a GG - the SS is going to win over the 2b every time .

[HaRdCoReBrAvEsFaN]

congrats to jeff...wright is a joke i agree...

[HeidiBee21]

My hat (that I'm pretending I'm wearing) is off to him. He did a great job and totally deserved it!

[MPH]

Chipper should have won the third base Gold Glove instead of David Wright.
I totally agree, and if it was the Mizuno Gold Glove Award intead of the Rawlings Gold Glve Award, he would have been a shoe-in!

[vnodnarb]

This brings up a pet peeve of mine - Why do they lump all the outfielders together in the GG voting ? When the Gold Glove started in 1957, there was a separate Gold Glove for LF, CF and RF each year . Willie Mays usually won for CF , Clemente usually won for RF ,ETC. Outfielders almost never switch spots during the season and the skills needed are different for each spot ( RF requires a strong arm like Francoeur , LF does not so much ).

Another bad result from lumping them all together and just picking the 3 best is that you usually end up with all CFs - of course the CF is the best outfielder on any team , that's why he was put there . But that doesn't tell you who the best RF or LF was in any year .

To me, it would be like lumping all the middle infielders and picking the best fielders for a GG - the SS is going to win over the 2b every time .

I think you found your reason. I actually like this way better, I don't think any LF's should be winning Gold Gloves, they are there for a reason typically. An only one in awhile should a RF win one. The best three outfielders deserve the three gold gloves in my opinion. Just think if you had Hunter, A. Jones, and Griffey all in the same league 6-8 years ago, don't you think they should all win a gold glove?

[Sylentman]

Congrats to Jeff. I am so proud of him about what he had been done for us and the Braves organization.

[brnt247]

I don't see how someone can bash them for giving it to Wright and praise them for giving it to Francoeur... Neither are the best fielders at their positions, maybe Jeff is the best RF and that is still a maybe, but of all outfielders there are plenty with more ability. The same can be said about Wright.

One of my friends works for the Mets Public Relations and said David Wright called in saying "I won the gold glove? How the hell did that happen?" You can believe my quote or not but the kid lives in my fraternity house and is a very reliable person.

[Tex4Prez]

seeing wright on the gold glove team just shows all the fans how big everyone is on the Mets now. A joke but w/e congrats to frenchy for his defense no one really recognizes his D but guess it shows now. Good job.

[KRAZE E E803]

Chipper not winning the GG is a joke. I we all watched him game in and game out play the best defense of his career. Don't the voters look at the stats, Chipper had 9 errors compared to Wrights 21. WOW! Not to mention a fielding percentage 17 points lower than chipper. O well goes to show the award isn't what it used to be. Congrats Francoeur on winning the award. I must say I was shocked when I saw that, I even thought it was a misprint or maybe I didn't see what I thought I had. When I think about it though his arm saved us as much as any diving catch or ball run down in the outfield. SPeaking of "Diving Catches" what joke they are becoming now. People making a dive when they dont really need to. It sickens me to see that crap. Im also happy for andrew for winning it. Everyone said he had lost a step. Myabe, but he is still among the best ever to play that position and still is great.


FUCK JASON STARK AND HIS DUMB BOOK :beer:

[BGarrett7]

Don't the voters look at the stats ...I would hope they have a little more sense than that.

[SamtheBravesFan]

I don't see how someone can bash them for giving it to Wright and praise them for giving it to Francoeur... Neither are the best fielders at their positions, maybe Jeff is the best RF and that is still a maybe, but of all outfielders there are plenty with more ability.


Well, it is a tiny bit refreshing to see a non-centerfielder win one once in a while this decade. Some edict must have been passed in 2000 that said at least two Gold Gloves should go to center fielders :P

[BGarrett7]

Well, it is a tiny bit refreshing to see a non-centerfielder win one once in a while this decade. 2007: Jeff Francoeur (RF)
2006: Ichiro (RF)
2005: Ichiro (RF), Bobby Abreu (RF)
2004: Ichiro (RF)
2003: Ichiro (RF), Jose Cruz (RF)
2002: Ichiro (RF), Larry Walker (RF)
2001: Ichiro (RF), Larry Walker (RF)
2000: Jermaine Dye (RF), Darin Erstad (LF)

So, out of 49 possible Gold Glove winners, there have been 13 non-CF winners this decade. While nowhere near the 66.7% it should be, 26.5% is still not bad for the corner OFs who hardly get the acclaim of their CF counterparts.

Fuck it, let's take it back to the 90's, as well...

1999: Shawn Green (RF), Larry Walker (RF)
1998: Larry Walker (RF), Barry Bonds (LF)
1997: Barry Bonds (LF), Raul Mondesi (RF), Larry Walker (RF)
1996: Jay Buhner (RF), Barry Bonds (LF)
1995: Raul Mondesi (RF)
1994: Barry Bonds (LF)
1993: Barry Bonds (LF), Larry Walker (RF)
1992: Barry Bonds (LF), Larry Walker (RF)
1991: Barry Bonds (LF), Tony Gwynn (RF)
1990: Barry Bonds (LF), Tony Gwynn (RF)

So, out of 60, that comes to a total of 19 (31.7%) barely better than what we are averaging for this decade. Also, notice the grand total of two non-CF AL outfielders over that ten year span.

[vnodnarb]

Why has Bonds played LF and not RF for his career, he used to have a damn good arm?

[JCStone7]

Why has Bonds played LF and not RF for his career, he used to have a damn good arm?

Please tell me your joking?

[BGarrett7]

Why has Bonds played LF and not RF for his career, he used to have a damn good arm?Uh, his throwing strength was always his one defensive drawback.

[JCStone7]

If you can't nail down Sid Bream from 2B from mid LF then you've got an arm deficiency

[MPH]

[quote=Rick;147703]This brings up a pet peeve of mine - Why do they lump all the outfielders together in the GG voting ? When the Gold Glove started in 1957, there was a separate Gold Glove for LF, CF and RF each year . Willie Mays usually won for CF , Clemente usually won for RF ,ETC. quote]

Your facts are a little shaky on the history of GG, Rick - and shockingly so for a long-time Braves fan! :eek:

It's true that from 1958 to 1960 there were separate awards for LF, CF, and RF in each league, but Clemente didn't win any of them (Clemente won his first in 1961, when all outfielders were first lumped together).

All three of the NL RF GG Awards went to a young fellow named Hank Something-or-other who played RF for Milwaukee in those days. The three consecutive GG's he won in 1958-1960 are rarely mentioned when people evaluate the overall merit of his career. Hank was a great all-around player whose many career achievements are woefully under-appreciated even by Braves fans.

(Rawlings started awarding Gold Gloves in 1957. In 1957 there was one award for each position in both leagues combined, with specific RF, CF, and LF awards. From 1958 to 1960 two awards were given for each position - one for each league - and RF, CF, and LF were still differentiated. Beginning in 1961, and until now, the outfielders are all lumped together in recognition of the fact that the best outfielders usually play CF.)

[vnodnarb]

Please tell me your joking?

Uh, his throwing strength was always his one defensive drawback.

My bad, I had a hotcorner moment, for some reason I thought he had a stronger arm earlier in his career and had an injury that caused his Damon like arm now.

[McCarroll21]

He used to have a lot of range but age, knee problems and back problems took out some of his speed that limited his range.

[Hobbes]

I don't see how someone can bash them for giving it to Wright and praise them for giving it to Francoeur... Neither are the best fielders at their positions, maybe Jeff is the best RF and that is still a maybe, but of all outfielders there are plenty with more ability. The same can be said about Wright.
Off the top of my head, Victorino is a far superior defender to Francoeur, with an arm that is almost as good.

[JayDonnelly10]

Off the top of my head, Victorino is a far superior defender to Francoeur, with an arm that is almost as good.

The Flying Hawaiin!!!!!

[brnt247]

Off the top of my head, Victorino is a far superior defender to Francoeur, with an arm that is almost as good.

That was exactly who I was thinking about as I wrote it. You could also say Kearns is up there with Francoeur with a similar arm.

[SamtheBravesFan]

I guess we should just accept the Gold Glove award as fundamentally flawed.

[brnt247]

I guess we should just accept the Gold Glove award as fundamentally flawed.

Agreed, it's lost its luster.

[MPH]

I guess we should just accept the Gold Glove award as fundamentally flawed.
Yeah, like every other subjective judgement in any form of human endeavor ...

[SamtheBravesFan]

Yeah, like every other subjective judgement in any form of human endeavor ...

Well, then... what exactly can be done about it? Obviously, the wrong people, like Jimmy Rollins and David Wright, are winning them.

[MPH]

Well, then... what exactly can be done about it? Obviously, the wrong people, like Jimmy Rollins and David Wright, are winning them.
Not much. It's a purely subjective decision made by some guys we don't know.

Until BGarrett invents a dependable, repeatable statistical measurement for defense (that everybody accepts without debate) there will always be disagreements.

[BGarrett7]

It's my calling in life. :)

[MPH]

Better hurry - this thread won't last forever!

[SamtheBravesFan]

I can wait. ;)

[MPH]

Seriously, things like errors and OF assists are so scarce compared to Total Chances as to be nearly anecdotal. Using Fpct is ridiculous because a better defensive player makes more and tougher plays (and screws them up more) than a slowpoke who lets the ball bounce a few times before cleanly fielding it.

The problem with all-in defensive stats is that no two systems have very close correlation to one another so it's hard to "prove" one decent fielder is any better than another decent fielder.

The numbers available as inputs are largely team-dependent so it's hard to isolate one guy's exact performance without complicated adjustments. For example, Total Chances has to be one of the inputs, but TC depends on the skill of the players on either side of a guy. It will be interesting to look at Jeff's numbers next season and see how his stats are impacted by the loss of AJ.

So, Sam, what I'm saying is that there is little that can be done to remedy the apparent flaws in the method used to select Gold Glove awardees. I'm glad AJ and Jeff won the awards this year, though.

[SamtheBravesFan]

I understand. I really am happy too, even though it doesn't seem like it. ;P

[Rick]

[quote=Rick;147703]This brings up a pet peeve of mine - Why do they lump all the outfielders together in the GG voting ? When the Gold Glove started in 1957, there was a separate Gold Glove for LF, CF and RF each year . Willie Mays usually won for CF , Clemente usually won for RF ,ETC. quote]

Your facts are a little shaky on the history of GG, Rick - and shockingly so for a long-time Braves fan! :eek:

It's true that from 1958 to 1960 there were separate awards for LF, CF, and RF in each league, but Clemente didn't win any of them (Clemente won his first in 1961, when all outfielders were first lumped together).

All three of the NL RF GG Awards went to a young fellow named Hank Something-or-other who played RF for Milwaukee in those days. The three consecutive GG's he won in 1958-1960 are rarely mentioned when people evaluate the overall merit of his career. Hank was a great all-around player whose many career achievements are woefully under-appreciated even by Braves fans.

(Rawlings started awarding Gold Gloves in 1957. In 1957 there was one award for each position in both leagues combined, with specific RF, CF, and LF awards. From 1958 to 1960 two awards were given for each position - one for each league - and RF, CF, and LF were still differentiated. Beginning in 1961, and until now, the outfielders are all lumped together in recognition of the fact that the best outfielders usually play CF.)

MPH,
Let me redeem myself as a longtime Braves fan . I definitely remember Hank Aaron winning those Gold Gloves from 1958 thru 1960 . I just used the Clemente , Mays example because I thought people would remember that easier . In fact , I always thought Hank was just as good a RF as Clemente and I didn't like it when Clemente was given the GG automatically from 1961 on .

But I had no idea that the lumping together of outfielders went back as far as 1961 . Maybe what fooled me was that there was nearly always a LF , CF , and RF who won the GG . In the AL in the 1960s , the three winners were usually Yazstremski ( a LF ), Mantle (a CF ) and Kaline ( a RF ) . Makes you wonder if the voters thought they were still voting for separate positions .

[MPH]

... I definitely remember Hank Aaron winning those Gold Gloves from 1958 thru 1960 . I just used the Clemente , Mays example because I thought people would remember that easier. In fact , I always thought Hank was just as good a RF as Clemente ...
I figured it was something like that - I was just tweakin' ya.

Sadly enough, you are right - people generally don't remember Aaron as a Gold Glove outfielder, and it's a shame.