What would YOU do in the off-season?

[McCarroll21]

It's that time of the year again. We did this last year and got a few good posts, but we started it earlier and were very small at the time. With the World Series looking to be complete trash, it's time to give us something to talk about.

My question to you is this: If you were in Wren's shoes, what would you do to prepare the Braves for next season?

For those guys full of trades, this is your time to shine.

This is what I want. I want you to list what you would do if you were Wren after this season. Starting from in-house options to improving the team through trades and free agency. Posting trades is accepted here (usually I'm against it because it's too unpredictable), but make them reasonable. Meaning, only post trades that include players that are likely to be traded. Basically, keep it realistic, not a bunch of video game trades.

After you're done posting your moves, list the position battles you would expect for Spring Training considering your team and the team you would most likely exit Spring Training with, assuming everyone is healthy.

Recap:
Complete in-house options. -- Picking up options, arbitration eligible players, etc.
Upgrade team through trades and Free Agency.
Post position battles for Spring Training.
Post team you would leave Spring Training with.While doing this, remember that we will most likely have a payroll in the $90 million range -- you don't have to list money figures, but think about what we can afford before you bring them in.

List it all out in one post so we don't have to search all over the place for your moves. If you want to change it later, just go back and edit your post; then make a new post saying you updated it and preferably a link or at least the reply number in the thread.

Hopefully this sparks some good discussion. I'll post mine later.

[JCStone7]

Let me start off by doing this.

:wave::
Tyler Yates
Oscar Villarreal
Buddy Carlyle
Willie Harris
Lance Cormier
Chris Woodward
Ron Mahay
Mike Hampton via injury

Offer Arbitration :deal:
Rafael Soriano
Mike Gonzalez
Matt Diaz
Andruw Jones (he won't take it, but we'll get a compensation)

Trades:
Edgar Renteria, Chuck James, Brent Lillibridge, Scott Thorman to the Oakland A's for Dan Haren

Joey Devine + prospect if need be to Kansas City for David DeJesus

Signings:
Tom Glavine - 7.5 mill/1 yr
Bartolo Colon - incentive laden 1 year
Corky Miller - 800,00/1 yr
Mark Teixeira - long term

Stoney's 2008 Lineup:
SS - Yunel Escobar
2B - Kelly Johnson
3B - Chipper Jones
1B - Mark Teixeira
C - Brian McCann
RF - Jeff Francoeur
LF - Matt Diaz/Brandon Jones
CF - David DeJesus

2008 Rotation:
Tim Hudson
John Smoltz
Dan Haren
Tom Glavine
Bartolo Colon/Jo-Jo Reyes

2008 Bullpen:
Rafael Soriano - Closer
Peter Moylan
Mike Gonzalez
Manny Acosta
Royce Ring
Jose Ascanio
Jeff Bennett/Blaine Boyer - long man

2008 Bench:
Corky Miller - C
Brayan Pena - UTIL
Martin Prado - 2B, SS
Willy Aybar - 3B
Brandon Jones - OF

[ifthenwouldi]

You guys do a terrific job here, but I couldn't help but remember this thread:

http://www.braves-nation.com/forums/showthread.php?t=6976

[JCStone7]

You guys do a terrific job here, but I couldn't help but remember this thread:

http://www.braves-nation.com/forums/showthread.php?t=6976

Well thanks but the Godfather said this there in that thread (http://www.braves-nation.com/forums/showpost.php?p=140973&postcount=8)

[ifthenwouldi]

I'm still waiting on that Hershey's shipment, JC. When are you sending it again?

[JCStone7]

I said later didn't I.

[McCarroll21]

It's later. I told you this thread would come. There's no reason to debate it really. I said wait for later and you would have a thread where you can post anything you would like to do; the time has come.

End of story. No need to fill the thread with discussion about another thread. Discuss this thread. You were promised it would come; it's here.

Finish.

[ifthenwouldi]

Okay. I guess I'll just wait until later for my Hershey's.

[milbraves]

Corky Miller??? He struggled to hit his weight in AAA

[JCStone7]

Corky Miller??? He struggled to hit his weight in AAA

I think Sammons would be good with one more year of seasoning in AAA

[Scalpel19]

Ok, with my sources giving me pretty good info I feel like I can honestly say what I believe will happen this offseason for the Braves

Saying Goodbye (via Free Agency)
Willie Harris
Corky Miller
Chris Woodward
Julio Franco
Andruw Jones
Buddy Carlyle

Free Agent Signing
Tom Glavine
Matt Clement (he could rebuild his career in the less hostile Atlanta environment)
Bench Depth (will have to look at later when players file for FA)

Trades
1) Yunel Escobar, Chuck James, Clint Sammons, and (perhaps) Blaine Boyer to the Oakland A's for Dan Haren and Justin Duchsherer

2) There is a potential trade that is being debated about right now that I have sworn to my sources that I will keep it secret FOR NOW. When they grant me their blessign I will update my post.


Spring Training Battles
Jordan Schafer vs Brent Lillibridge vs Willie Harris for CF
Matt Clement vs Mike Hampton vs Jo-Jo Reyes vs Lance Cormier for 5th SP

Starting Lineup
Brian McCann - C
Mark Teixeira - 1B
Kelly Johnson - 2B
Edgar Renteria - SS
Chipper Jones - 3B
Matt Diaz - LF --- he finally gets what should have been his for 2 seasons

Jordan Schafer - CF
Jeff Francouer - RF

Bench
Brandon Jones
Martin Prado
Brayan Pena
Scott Thorman or Added Veteran
Pete Orr

Starting Rotation
1) John Smoltz
2) Tim Hudson
3) Dan Haren
4) Tom Glavine
5) Matt Clement


Bullpen
Rafael Soriano -Closer
Manny Acosta
Mike Gonzalez
Peter Moylan
Tyler Yates
Royce Ring
Joey Devine

[Macquiao]

Let me start off by doing this.

:wave::
Tyler Yates
Oscar Villarreal
Buddy Carlyle
Willie Harris
Lance Cormier
Chris Woodward
Ron Mahay
Mike Hampton via injury

Offer Arbitration :deal:
Rafael Soriano
Mike Gonzalez
Matt Diaz
Andruw Jones (he won't take it, but we'll get a compensation)

Trades:
Edgar Renteria, Chuck James, Brent Lillibridge, Scott Thorman to the Oakland A's for Dan Haren

Joey Devine + prospect if need be to Kansas City for David DeJesus

Signings:
Tom Glavine - 7.5 mill/1 yr
Bartolo Colon - incentive laden 1 year
Corky Miller - 800,00/1 yr
Mark Teixeira - long term

Stoney's 2008 Lineup:
SS - Yunel Escobar
2B - Kelly Johnson
3B - Chipper Jones
1B - Mark Teixeira
C - Brian McCann
RF - Jeff Francoeur
LF - Matt Diaz/Brandon Jones
CF - David DeJesus

2008 Rotation:
Tim Hudson
John Smoltz
Dan Haren
Tom Glavine
Bartolo Colon/Jo-Jo Reyes

2008 Bullpen:
Rafael Soriano - Closer
Peter Moylan
Mike Gonzalez
Manny Acosta
Royce Ring
Jose Ascanio
Jeff Bennett/Blaine Boyer - long man

2008 Bench:
Corky Miller - C
Brayan Pena - UTIL
Martin Prado - 2B, SS
Willy Aybar - 3B
Brandon Jones - OF
Scratch Brandon Jones off your want list. I just read on MVN.com that he is no longer available and that we will most likely sign Cameron or Lillibridge.

http://www.braves-nation.com/forums/showthread.php?p=145230#post145230

Many people have been tossing around the idea of Brandon Jones taking over in right and Francoeur moving to center, the position he came up through the minors at. He probably would have been a fine center fielder, however his arm is much more valuable in right and Brandon Jones’ would have been mediocre at the position. I’d put my money on either Mike Cameron or Brent Lillibridge to have the job out of spring training next year.

[cjones1999]

My lineup projection:
2B-KJ
SS-Yunel Escobar
3B-Chipper Jones
1B- Mark Teixera
C-Brian McCann
LF-Matt Diaz
RF-Jeff Francoeur
CF-Lillibridge/Schafer

Bench:
Willie
Thorman
Julio
Sammons
Pena

Rotation:
Smoltz
Hudson
Glavine
Schilling
Clement

pen:
Soriano-CL
Dotel-SU
Gonzalez-SU
Moylan-MRP
Ascanio-MRP
Ring-MRP
Boyer-LRP

Other notes:
Villareal starts season in AAA to regain stamina.

Signings:
Julio, Teixera.

[KB 34]

My lineup projection:
2B-KJ
SS-Yunel Escobar
3B-Chipper Jones
1B- Mark Teixera
C-Brian McCann
LF-Matt Diaz
RF-Jeff Francoeur
CF-Lillibridge/Schafer

Bench:
Willie
Thorman
Julio
Sammons
Pena
Why would the Braves go with 2 backups for Teix, two catchers, and no one capable of playing ss? In fact, there isn't a decent infielder backup on that list either.

[JCStone7]

Why would the Braves go with 2 backups for Teix, two catchers, and no one capable of playing ss? In fact, there isn't a decent infielder backup on that list either.

You need to look at who posted it :)

[cjones1999]

Why would the Braves go with 2 backups for Teix, two catchers, and no one capable of playing ss? In fact, there isn't a decent infielder backup on that list either.
Julio to PH, Pena won't catch, he'll be an OF backup

[JCStone7]

Julio to PH, Pena won't catch, he'll be an OF backup

We know Pena won't catch but Pena an outfielder and still having Julio

:throwup:

[cjones1999]

Also, when Lillibridge isn't playing, he can be the emergency SS.

What does everyone think about my pitching staff?

[KB 34]

Also, when Lillibridge isn't playing, he can be the emergency SS.

What does everyone think about my pitching staff?
Dotel should be penciled in on the DL at $6 million instead of the bullpen. I also don't see it reasonable to expect to sign both Schilling and Clement, nor do I understand why they should be signed other than to make the Braves pitching rotation eligible for AARP benefits.

Onto the bench once again, why keep Julio when he's only a PH and not as good of one as Prado, Pena, or some of the posters here? 50 year olds don't get a second try at the plate because of their age.

[cjones1999]

Dotel should be penciled in on the DL at $6 million instead of the bullpen. I also don't see it reasonable to expect to sign both Schilling and Clement, nor do I understand why they should be signed other than to make the Braves pitching rotation eligible for AARP benefits.

Onto the bench once again, why keep Julio when he's only a PH and not as good of one as Prado, Pena, or some of the posters here? 50 year olds don't get a second try at the plate because of their age.
Dotel and Schilling are still good despite being old.
Second, we can forget Julio and go with Schafer on the bench

[JCStone7]

Also why would we force two rookies to platoon in CF when


Lillibridge will be re-learning that postion and
Schafer will have a made a huge jump to the bigs

[JayDonnelly10]

Dotel and Schilling are still good despite being old.
Second, we can forget Julio and go with Schafer on the bench

the Braves arent going to let Schafer ride the bench he'll either be a starter or back in the minors! on the bench would be stupid

[JayDonnelly10]

My lineup projection:

Rotation:
Smoltz
Hudson
Glavine
Schilling
Clement



Penciling in Clement is like penciling in Hampton to be healthy.....why is everyone in love with Clement? Schilling I could deal with, but I dont think I want Clement

[JCStone7]

Penciling in Clement is like penciling in Hampton to be healthy.....why is everyone in love with Clement? Schilling I could deal with, but I dont think I want Clement

Because signing an injury-riddled player so they can in essence re-prove their self is a good idea cuz you might strike gold in a career year. In example see the trade for J.D. Drew has he had a healthy season since?

[KB 34]

Dotel and Schilling are still good despite being old.
Second, we can forget Julio and go with Schafer on the bench
Dotel is okay when he's healthy, which is good for 20 innings most seasons. Look this up if you don't believe me. You still haven't made a case for why Schilling helps the Braves, fills salary constraints, and would want to come to Atlanta. Schafer to the bench is just stupid since players develop in the minors, not on MLB benches.

[cjones1999]

eh, just get Haren

[SamtheBravesFan]

Schafer needs to develop in Mississippi or Richmond. Riding the pine in Atlanta is not going to help him. Do we want another Francoeur situation?

C - Brian McCann
1B - Mark Teixeira
2B - Kelly Johnson
3B - Chipper Jones
SS - Yunel Escobar
LF - Matt Diaz
CF - David DeJesus
RF - Jeff Francoeur

BC - Brayan Pena
B1 - Julio Franco
BIF - Martin Prado
BIF - Pete Orr
BOF - Willie Harris
BOF - Bobby Kielty

SP - John Smoltz
SP - Tim Hudson
SP - Chuck James
SP - Shawn Marcum
SP - Jo-Jo Reyes

CL - Rafael Soriano
SU - Mike Gonzalez
SR - Manny Ascota
SR - Jose Ascaino
SR - Tyler Yates
MR - Ron Mahay
LR - Peter Moylan
EX - Royce Ring

This is really all I could think of. It's hardly perfect, but I think it'll do.

[cjones1999]

I'm sorry I just don't like DeJesus.

[JCStone7]

I'm sorry I just don't like DeJesus.

That's fine but I say you post what YOU think the Braves should do since that is the point of this thread.

[SamtheBravesFan]

I'm sorry I just don't like DeJesus.

I like him better than Crisp, that's for sure. DeJesus has a much better OBP and his season was a down year last year thanks to a few injuries. Crisp has had TWO down years at the plate. The only advantage he has over DeJesus is his glove, and I think the Braves can get DeJesus without having to give up too much.

[Vuchato]

Trade Edgar for a starter, sign Glavine, thats pretty much what I'd do. re-sign Dotel if he's a FA.

Hudson
Smoltz
Glavine
Burnett?
James

Gonzalez
Soriano
Dotel

Harris-CF
Johnson-2B
Jones-3B
Teixeira-1B
Francoeur-RF
McCann-C
Diaz-LF
Escobar-SS

[KB 34]

Everyone seems to have forgotten that the Braves have enough money to sign Tori Hunter, so why would they waste their time with DeJesus? Money grows on trees and other teams would love to purge themselves of good players as well.

[BGarrett7]

Everyone seems to have forgotten that the Braves have enough money to sign Tori Hunter, so why would they waste their time with DeJesus? Money grows on trees and other teams would love to purge themselves of good players as well.If the Braves have the money to go after a Torii Hunter, an Aaron Rowand, any of the big-name CF free agents, they wouldn't have just let Andruw walk.

[MPH]

eh, just get Haren
Maybe Haren, maybe somebody similar, but I really think the Braves should narrowly focus on getting the best possible pitcher in exchange for Renteria.

With Smoltz, Hudson, and James (and maybe Glavine) plus another 30-game starter, the rotation will be stable. The bullpen is already good, and Oscar - the forgotten man here - will bounce back from this season to become a vulture again in long relief.

The bench will have aged and matured by a year, and Thorman should be a useful PH next year. We already have plenty of infielders as backups. Corky and Pena are decent backup catchers. For OF backups we can try some farmhands, Thorman, or even KJ.

There just isn't that much wrong with the team that one more dependable starter won't fix.

The pen is fine, the offense is fine, the starting staff just one pitcher short of fine, and I'd be fully satisfied with a good-glove/no-stick guy for centerfield.

[Preacher]

If possible pry Haren away from the A's; is this all speculation or does someone have a link I haven't seen about the A's possibly moving him? I believe Haren is signed through 2010 so I don't see any reason why Oakland would move him.

That being said we still need to fix our rotation; depending on how much Tommy G wants I'm all for adding him and attempting to deal Renteria for a 3-4 type pitcher.

My biggest off-season priority would be locking Teix up; get him squared away then try and include Thorman in a deal for some more pitching (Dan Haren?)

It's funny to me how many of you are against signing Schilling but all for bringing in Glavine.

Schilling 2007 13 Million
157 Innings, 3.87 ERA

Glavine 2007 10.5 Million
200.1 Innings, 4.45 ERA

Both pitchers are 41 years old, Schilling pitched less innings, but considering he pitched in the American League did a better job overall.

[JCStone7]

I believe Schilling is only considering 3 places and none of them is Atlanta. From what I've read he's thinking Philly, Boston, or Baltimore

[BGarrett7]

Schilling will still command top dollar, Glavine can probably be had for less than the $10M he made last season.

[Preacher]

Schilling will still command top dollar, Glavine can probably be had for less than the $10M he made last season.

This is the only reason I'd favor Glavine over Schilling; although I don't believe that any team will be getting Glavine for under 10 million.

[BGarrett7]

This is the only reason I'd favor Glavine over Schilling; although I don't believe that any team will be getting Glavine for under 10 million.If it takes over $10M to land Tommy, I don't see him returning to Atlanta.

[Vuchato]

If the Braves have the money to go after a Torii Hunter, an Aaron Rowand, any of the big-name CF free agents, they wouldn't have just let Andruw walk.

the one problem with that, Andruw sucks.

Rowand>>>>>>>Andruw

[cjones1999]

the one problem with that, Andruw sucks.

Rowand>>>>>>>Andruw
AJ is a better player than Rowand. Nuff said.

[-Merczateer-]

Dotel and Schilling are still good despite being old.
Second, we can forget Julio and go with Schafer on the bench


Uh, um, uh.

First thing I must note on.... Dotel and Schilling are both in the latter stages of their careers, but Schilling is still several years older. It just isn't logical to put them into the same category

Secondly, Dotel and Schilling are quite good, but in recent years they have been oft injured, especially in Dotel's case.

In other matters, im also certain we've seen the last of Julio Franco as a brave in the regular season. He may be a non-roster invitee next season, though it would be hard to justify him a 25-man roster spot. I hate to say this, as Julio is one of my favorite Braves of the 21st century, but it's just true.

If Schafer is good enough for MLB, put him in a regular day roll. Having him on the bench in MLB will stunt his development, thus slowly rotting away hopes of a decent career....... Starting outfielder or minors......don't stick him on the bench and let him deteriorate.

[SgtPepper]

is Dan Haren a real possibility? Or just more along the lines of wishful thinking? I would LOVE to have him here.

[Hobbes]

is Dan Haren a real possibility? Or just more along the lines of wishful thinking? I would LOVE to have him here.
He's a pipe dream, and I don't know why folks keep bringing up his name.

[JCStone7]

He's a pipe dream, and I don't know why folks keep bringing up his name.

So was Mark Teixeira

[SamtheBravesFan]

So was Mark Teixeira

I disagree. Anyone with a bunch of prospects would have been able to get him and the Braves were the ones who gave their arm and leg for him. Now like a starfish, they have to grow them back, because there isn't an extra arm or leg left to chop off for Haren.

[JCStone7]

I disagree. Anyone with a bunch of prospects would have been able to get him and the Braves were the ones who gave their arm and leg for him. Now like a starfish, they have to grow them back, because there isn't an extra arm or leg left to chop off for Haren.

Who would've thought that the Braves would actually go after Teix is what I'm trying to say. So it's not completely unlikely the Braves will go hard after Haren.

[Hobbes]

So was Mark Teixeira
It made a whole lot more sense for the Rangers to trade Teix than it does for the A's to trade Haren. They knew they would lose him to free agency after next year anyway, and they were on the hook for a big arbitration payday next season. Plus, by trading him this year they could ask for more in return because he was less of a "rental".

With Haren the A's have an ace-quality pitcher locked up for 3 more years at bargain-basement rates. When you have to try and compete with such a low payroll you don't let that player go until you have to.

Not only are we not getting Haren, but nobody else is either.

[JCStone7]

Not only are we not getting Haren, but nobody else is either.

I understand what your saying, I guess we shall see.

[Vuchato]

AJ is a better player than Rowand. Nuff said.

Andruw may be more talented, but Rowand tries hard consistently, he's one of the most hardnosed players in the league, while I don't think Andruw ever tries.

[BGarrett7]

If being hard-nosed won baseball games, Darin Erstad and David Eckstein would actually be the players baseball writers want to believe they are.

[SamtheBravesFan]

if hard-nosed won baseball games, Darin Erstad and David Eckstein would actually be the players baseball writers want to believe they are.

Pete Orr tries just as hard as them, but he stinks too. Trying hard is admirable, but it does not always produce results.

[cjones1999]

I don't know if it would work, but I'd prolly try to trade for Boof Bonser.

[HaRdCoReBrAvEsFaN]

Why when there are better options than him at this point? Hell we'd be better off just keeping Chuck James in the rotation that trading for him imo...

[Vuchato]

If being hard-nosed won baseball games, Darin Erstad and David Eckstein would actually be the players baseball writers want to believe they are.

Eckstein-2 WS rings, WS MVP
Erstad-1 WS ring
Rowand-1 WS ring
Andruw-0 WS rings

yeah, those hard-nosed players seem to have much more trouble winning.

[milbraves]

Eckstein-2 WS rings, WS MVP
Erstad-1 WS ring
Rowand-1 WS ring
Andruw-0 WS rings

yeah, those hard-nosed players seem to have much more trouble winning.
http://i184.photobucket.com/albums/x285/thebusket/ohsnap.gif
Oh snap indeed!

[BGarrett7]

Eckstein-2 WS rings, WS MVP
Erstad-1 WS ring
Rowand-1 WS ring
Andruw-0 WS rings

yeah, those hard-nosed players seem to have much more trouble winning.Luis Sojo: 4 WS rings
Darryl Strawberry: 3 WS rings
Luis Polonia: 2 WS rings
Byung-Hyun Kim: 2 WS rings
Mark Redman: 1 WS ring
Sal Fasano: 1 WS ring
Bobby Bonilla: 1 WS ring

Dare I continue?

[SamtheBravesFan]

Eckstein-2 WS rings, WS MVP
Erstad-1 WS ring
Rowand-1 WS ring
Andruw-0 WS rings

yeah, those hard-nosed players seem to have much more trouble winning.

A World Series win is a team effort, you doofus. Besides, Luis Sojo winning 4 World Series rings blows your argument out of the water completely.

[BGarrett7]

Just for shits and giggles, let's take a look at Eckstein's World Series MVP performance in 2006...

Game 1 (Cardinals win 7-2): 0-5, 1 K
Game 2 (Tigers win 3-1): 0-4 (0-9, in series)
Game 3 (Cardinals win 5-0): 2-4, 1 R (2-13, 2 1B, 1 R in series)
Game 4 (Cardinals win 5-4): 4-5, GW RBI 2B, 1 R, 2 RBI (6-18, 2 R, 3 2B, 3 1B, 2 RBI)
Game 5 (Cardinals win 4-2): 2-4, 2 1B, 1 R, 2 RBI (8-22, 3 R, 4 RBI, 5 1B, 3 2B)

Yeah, nothing quite says MVP like a 2-13 (.154) start and all three extra-base hits coming in the same game. Hell, two of those doubles in game four were a fluke anyways -- one Granderson slipped on, the other Monroe should have caught. If he hadn't driven in the go-ahead run in game five, no one would have even considered him as MVP.

[Vuchato]

A World Series win is a team effort, you doofus. Besides, Luis Sojo winning 4 World Series rings blows your argument out of the water completely.

wow, doofus? great insult.

do you really think I don't know that winning is a team effort? I was just saying that hard-nosed players can win. What I was saying in that original post was that I'd much rather have a player that gives a consistent effort, that wants to win, rather than one who'll just exist, do the bare minimum, and hope to get that big contract at the end of the day. I'm sure pretty much any coach and GM would agree with me. Not to mention that guys like that, especially if they're vets, will help to inspire younger players, try to get them to work harder, not just relax. Especially on a young team like the Braves. Rowand would help out this team much more than Andruw.

[BGarrett7]

wow, doofus? great insult.

do you really think I don't know that winning is a team effort? I was just saying that hard-nosed players can win. What I was saying in that original post was that I'd much rather have a player that gives a consistent effort, that wants to win, rather than one who'll just exist, do the bare minimum, and hope to get that big contract at the end of the day. I'm sure pretty much any coach and GM would agree with me. Not to mention that guys like that, especially if they're vets, will help to inspire younger players, try to get them to work harder, not just relax. Especially on a young team like the Braves. Rowand would help out this team much more than Andruw.Alright, listen...

You want to know the reason that players like Eckstein, Erstad, et al look like they are busting their ass so much all the time? It's because, in the grand scheme of things, they are simply nothing more than average ML players, at best. If these guys don't go out there and bust their ass, some player with moderately better credentials -- which isn't hard to accomplish -- is going to swoop right in and steal their job. I don't fault these guys for going out there and leaving it all on the field every time they play, don't get me wrong, there's nothing I love more. But when you combine "gritty" and "gutty" with "mediocre" the only thing you get in the end is mediocre. The reason that players like Manny, Andruw, etc can go out there and seemingly half-ass it every day and night is because they have the talent and ability to be able to do so. When you are a superstar, you really don't have to put in as much effort as the players who are still scrapping to keep their job. It's a simple fact of life. If something comes to you naturally, you simply don't have to try as hard as those who have to fight for it. Does that mean the players who seemingly slack should be doing so all the time? Absolutely not, but unless you are costing your team ballgames, there's not a sane person in the world who would take "Manny being Manny" over the gritty, gutty Darin Erstad.

As for the relationship between the players who "hustle" and young players and all that shit, these are Major League baseball players who make millions upon millions of dollars to practice their craft, they don't need to be taught how to work hard and inspired. If they do, they aren't going to cut it in the first place, and 25 Ecksteins isn't going to change that in the slightest.

[Vuchato]

Alright, listen...

You want to know the reason that players like Eckstein, Erstad, et al look like they are busting their ass so much all the time? It's because, in the grand scheme of things, they are simply nothing more than average ML players, at best. If these guys don't go out there and bust their ass, some player with moderately better credentials -- which isn't hard to accomplish -- is going to swoop right in and steal their job. I don't fault these guys for going out there and leaving it all on the field every time they play, don't get me wrong, there's nothing I love more. But when you combine "gritty" and "gutty" with "mediocre" the only thing you get in the end is mediocre. The reason that players like Manny, Andruw, etc can go out there and seemingly half-ass it every day and night is because they have the talent and ability to be able to do so. When you are a superstar, you really don't have to put in as much effort as the players who are still scrapping to keep their job. It's a simple fact of life. If something comes to you naturally, you simply don't have to try as hard as those who have to fight for it. Does that mean the players who seemingly slack should be doing so all the time? Absolutely not, but unless you are costing your team ballgames, there's not a sane person in the world who would take "Manny being Manny" over the gritty, gutty Darin Erstad.

As for the relationship between the players who "hustle" and young players and all that shit, these are Major League baseball players who make millions upon millions of dollars to practice their craft, they don't need to be taught how to work hard and inspired. If they do, they aren't going to cut it in the first place, and 25 Ecksteins isn't going to change that in the slightest.

How can you not be costing your team games if you don't try as hard as you can? Guys like Eckstein and Rowand are always looking to be better than they were before, guys like Manny and Andruw are content with themselves, not looking to be any more. They aren't looking to be the best that they can be, not looking to go up a level, they don't care too much about getting that big one, they'd like it, but they don't care about it too much. And the worst part is when someone like Andruw will struggle for an entire season, and still not show an effort. Especially in a contract year, that shows that he's either incredibly cocky, has no passion for the business, or both. I've played on teams with those guys who are always trying their hardest, and on other teams with guys who really don't care. Those guys who don't care, you aren't gonna be trying hard, because the rest of the guys seem to be doing just fine. But if everyone else is trying, you have to try too, you don't want to be the guy who gets called out, who everyone complains about, the guy who gets blamed for a loss. The lazy guys are the ones who are gonna give up easily, if things don't look to be going the right way, they won't try too much, which really puts a damper on everyone elses attitude, If everyone else gives up, there's no point for you to try either.

[BGarrett7]

How can you not be costing your team games if you don't try as hard as you can?I'm not saying they aren't out there trying as hard as they can, but that they are not giving that added 110% that the average player does in order to be competitive at the ML level. There are players out there who can step onto the field and make the game look relatively simplistic and easy with very little ease. There are also players out there who have to put forth every ounce of effort in their body in order to be able to catch up to a 95 MPH fastball or get to a routine ball in the hole at short. It doesn't mean the players who are able to turn on a Joel Zumaya fastball with relative ease are any lazier than a player like Jeter who has to bust it to get to balls to his left, it just means they are better. We aren't dealing with a talent pool here where every player was born with the same amount of ability and it's up to the individual player to maximize that potential and make the most of it. Players like Barry Bonds, Alex Rodriguez and Pedro Martinez are simply better at what they do than players like Pete Orr, Kevin Cash or Colter Bean. It doesn't matter what the latter players do, they are never going to develop into the former, no matter how much hustle and effort they put into it.

Guys like Eckstein and Rowand are always looking to be better than they were before, guys like Manny and Andruw are content with themselves, not looking to be any more. They aren't looking to be the best that they can be, not looking to go up a level, they don't care too much about getting that big one, they'd like it, but they don't care about it too much.But you know what? They don't have to. They are good enough that they don't have to put forth the effort that some players do. They don't have to be out in the batting cage everyday at noon making sure they get in 500 swings before gametime. They don't have to be out there taking infield every waking moment trying to improve their range or their throwing ability. They are good enough that they don't have to worry about such trivial tasks. They are going to win more baseball games on their sheer natural ability than someone like Rowand or Erstad ever could with their desire and drive to be a better ballplayer.

And the worst part is when someone like Andruw will struggle for an entire season, and still not show an effort. Especially in a contract year, that shows that he's either incredibly cocky, has no passion for the business, or both.But you know what? He can do that. He is a product, the product has a very strong reputation, and there is a strong market for said product. It's like how companies like Taco Bell or Wendy's can have an endless run of disasters take place in their restaurants, but still have people coming into their establishments by the millions on a daily basis. Sure, they could all probably work a little harder to keep the bathrooms clean, or try and get that health inspection up from an 80 to a 97, but if people are coming in and the place is still open, what's the real difference? Sure, Andruw struggled mightily this season, but he's known since the day he stepped into the clubhouse at the Ballpark at Disney last February, that he was going to get paid at the end of the season. Does this mean he went out there and dogged it all season? Absolutely not. In a ML clubhouse, such shit is not tolerated. If you aren't going out there and putting forth effort, it is going to either be made public, or it's going to be dealt with behind closed doors -- which more than likely will be made public itself at some point. In a season that saw the Braves two clubhouse leaders, Smoltzie and Chipper, go at it in a public war of words, don't you think someone would have called Andruw's passion into question if they felt it was an issue detrimental to the team? You bet your ass they would have.

I've played on teams with those guys who are always trying their hardest, and on other teams with guys who really don't care. Those guys who don't care, you aren't gonna be trying hard, because the rest of the guys seem to be doing just fine. But if everyone else is trying, you have to try too, you don't want to be the guy who gets called out, who everyone complains about, the guy who gets blamed for a loss. The lazy guys are the ones who are gonna give up easily, if things don't look to be going the right way, they won't try too much, which really puts a damper on everyone elses attitude, If everyone else gives up, there's no point for you to try either.But you know the difference in yourself and someone like Andruw Jones? One of the two is a Major League baseball player, the other is you. Just because you see these types of things on whatever type of organized sports team you are on, does not mean that it exists as the very competitive level of professional sports.

[SamtheBravesFan]

I openly question the assertion that defeatism rubs off on other people in sports and makes them perform worse, deliberately or not. Seeing failure might not make anyone else feel good, but it is up to the players if they're going to let it affect them or not.

Seeing hustle might make a teammate or two feel good and want to try harder himself, but it might really depend on the situation. Some people might just want to roll over and die at the plate or on the field, but can you prove that the next two or three batters do the same thing?

Does it happen? I'm sure it does. Is it a big enough problem to criticize? No. It's human nature to be defeatist and negative. It's very hard to stay positive.

By the way, "doofus" is sometimes defined as a "foolish person", which is what I think you are. If we give positive credit for your "intangible" to David Eckstein (I'll call it the ROOT, Rubbing Off On Teammates, quotient) and negative credit to Andruw Jones, Eckstein would still be way out of Andruw's league.

You get me?

[McCarroll21]

Hmm... It appears that the theme of what would YOU do has been lost in this thread.

If you would like to continue this discussion; you can gladly open another thread and have at it. Most of these posts will probably be split out to a thread anyway.

Also, keep in mind this is a what would YOU do. You can discuss what others would do, but to attack what others would do is not the point. It's a way to generate discussion and kind of get other perspectives; not a way to harp on who you think is or is not available.

This is an opinion thread so long as they aren't just stupid. Let others be entitled to their opinion; not make it for them.

Thanks.

[Corvette]

What I Would Do.
Trades:
1) Edgar Renteria to Toronto for Adam Lind and prospect.

2) Brent Lillibridge, Brandon Jones, and Jose Ascanio (maybe too much) to Oakland for Joe Blanton.
-OR- Escobar, Brandon Jones, and Jo-Jo Reyes (or Chuck James) for Dan Haren.

3) Chuck James to Cincinnati for Ryan Freel.

Signings:
1) re-sign Ron Mahay to 1 year contract ($2 million?)
2) sign Tom Glavine to 1 year contract ($7.5 million?)
3) Mark Sweeney (back up 1B / OF)
lineup
1 Freel
2 Escobar
3 Jones
4 Teixeira
5 McCann
6 Francoeur
7 Johnson
8 Lind

Rotation
1 Smoltz
2 Hudson
3 Blanton
4 Glavine
5 Hampton / Reyes / Cormier

Bullpen
Soriano
Gonzalez (mid-season return)
Moylan
Mahay
Devine
Acosta
Ring
Boyer / Bennett (long relief)

bench
Sammons
Prado
Aybar
Diaz
Sweeney

[KB 34]

If Beane gives up Haren for any of the offers I've seen here, I'll lose every bit of respect I have for him. My guess on what Beane might settle for is Reyes, Brandon Jones, Lillibridge, Soriano, and Francoeur. Why would the demands be that high? Haren is under contract through 2010 at a max of $6.75 million. If the A's seek to cut some payroll after this season, there are several paths they could take without losing a really good pitcher. Also keep in mind how insane the market is for pitchers these days. It is much easier to get an okay position player (LaRoche for example) than a really good pitcher and even harder to get a pitcher who deserves their contract. I hope to be wrong on Haren, but I seriously doubt it.

[JCStone7]

Ok KB, will you please enligten us with your plan please.

[KB 34]

Ok KB, will you please enligten us with your plan please.
I haven't fully developed one yet, but here are the main highlights.

1. Glavine is signed to a 1 year $7 million deal with $1 million in possible incentives.
2. Renteria, James, Cormier, Villarreal, and Bryan Pena to the White Sox for Javier Vazquez and Brian Andersen (depth in Richmond)
3. (If possible, sign Kerry Wood to a 1 year $2 million deal with lots of incentives)

In the infield, things stay the same. In the outfield, after spring training battles are done, Gregor Blanco wins the CF job and proceeds to put up #8 hitter worthy numbers: .260/.345 with a HR or two while playing decent defense in CF. Diaz and Brandon Jones platoon in LF and serve as the #1 PH options.

KJ 2B/Escobar ss (first 2 spots based on matchups)
Escobar ss/KJ 2B
Chipper 3B
Teix 1B
McCann C
Francoeur RF
Diaz/Jones LF
Blanco CF

Bench:
Corky Miller (Braves don't think Pena can catch, trade him)
Matt Diaz/Brandon Jones
Martin Prado
Willie Aybar
Scott Thorman (kept out of fear that Teix will walk and the Hawaiian volcano won't be ready to start 2009)

Pitching rotation:
Smoltz
Hudson
Vazquez
Glavine
Reyes/Hampton/(Wood)

Bullpen:
Soriano (closer)
Moylan (8th setup)
Acosta (7th setup)
Devine
Ascanio
Ring
Boyer/Stockman/Bennett/free agent signing/whoever until Gonzalez is back

Approximate payroll (not specifically updated fully for this scenario):
<table x:str="" style="border-collapse: collapse; width: 144pt;" border="0" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="0" width="192"><col style="width: 48pt;" span="3" width="64"> <tbody><tr style="height: 12.75pt;" height="17"> <td colspan="2" style="height: 12.75pt; width: 96pt;" x:str="John Smoltz " height="17" width="128">John Smoltz </td> <td style="width: 48pt;" width="64">$14 million</td> </tr> <tr style="height: 12.75pt;" height="17"> <td colspan="2" style="height: 12.75pt;" height="17">Tim Hudson</td> <td>$13 million</td> </tr> <tr style="height: 12.75pt;" height="17"> <td colspan="2" style="height: 12.75pt;" height="17">Mark Teixeira</td> <td>$12 million*</td> </tr> <tr style="height: 12.75pt;" height="17"> <td colspan="2" style="height: 12.75pt;" height="17">Javier Vazquez</td> <td>$11.5 million</td> </tr> <tr style="height: 12.75pt;" height="17"> <td colspan="2" style="height: 12.75pt;" height="17">Chipper Jones</td> <td>$11 million</td> </tr> <tr style="height: 12.75pt;" height="17"> <td colspan="2" style="height: 12.75pt;" height="17">Mike Hampton</td> <td>$8 million</td> </tr> <tr style="height: 12.75pt;" height="17"> <td colspan="2" style="height: 12.75pt;" height="17">Tom Glavine</td> <td>$7 million</td> </tr> <tr style="height: 12.75pt;" height="17"> <td colspan="2" style="height: 12.75pt;" x:str="Mike Gonzalez " height="17">Mike Gonzalez </td> <td>$2.5 million*</td> </tr> <tr style="height: 12.75pt;" height="17"> <td colspan="2" style="height: 12.75pt;" height="17">Rafael Soriano</td> <td>$2.5 million*</td> </tr> <tr style="height: 12.75pt;" height="17"> <td colspan="2" style="height: 12.75pt;" height="17">Oscar Villarreal</td> <td>$1.35 million *</td> </tr> <tr style="height: 12.75pt;" height="17"> <td colspan="2" style="height: 12.75pt;" height="17">Brian McCann</td> <td class="xl22" x:num="800000" align="right">$800,000 </td> </tr> <tr style="height: 12.75pt;" height="17"> <td colspan="2" style="height: 12.75pt;" height="17">Jeff Francoeur</td> <td>$470,000*</td> </tr> <tr style="height: 12.75pt;" height="17"> <td colspan="2" style="height: 12.75pt;" x:str="Tyler Yates " height="17">Tyler Yates </td> <td>$450,000*</td> </tr> <tr style="height: 12.75pt;" height="17"> <td colspan="2" style="height: 12.75pt;" height="17">Kelly Johnson</td> <td>$440,000*</td> </tr> <tr style="height: 12.75pt;" height="17"> <td colspan="2" style="height: 12.75pt;" height="17">Peter Moylan</td> <td>$420,000*</td> </tr> <tr style="height: 12.75pt;" height="17"> <td colspan="2" style="height: 12.75pt;" height="17">Chuck James</td> <td>$430,000*</td> </tr> <tr style="height: 12.75pt;" height="17"> <td colspan="2" style="height: 12.75pt;" height="17">Lance Cormier</td> <td>$420,000*</td> </tr> <tr style="height: 12.75pt;" height="17"> <td style="height: 12.75pt;" height="17">Pete Orr</td> <td>
</td> <td>$420,000*</td> </tr> <tr style="height: 12.75pt;" height="17"> <td style="height: 12.75pt;" height="17">Matt Diaz</td> <td>
</td> <td>$420,000*</td> </tr> <tr style="height: 12.75pt;" height="17"> <td colspan="2" style="height: 12.75pt;" height="17">Scott Thorman</td> <td>$410,000*</td> </tr> <tr style="height: 12.75pt;" height="17"> <td colspan="2" style="height: 12.75pt;" height="17">Willie Harris</td> <td>$400,000*</td> </tr> <tr style="height: 12.75pt;" height="17"> <td colspan="2" style="height: 12.75pt;" height="17">Willie Aybar</td> <td>$400,000*</td> </tr> <tr style="height: 12.75pt;" height="17"> <td colspan="2" style="height: 12.75pt;" height="17">Manny Acosta</td> <td>$400,000*</td> </tr> <tr style="height: 12.75pt;" height="17"> <td colspan="2" style="height: 12.75pt;" height="17">Jose Ascanio</td> <td>$400,000*</td> </tr> <tr style="height: 12.75pt;" height="17"> <td colspan="2" style="height: 12.75pt;" height="17">Gregor Blanco</td> <td>$400,000*</td> </tr> <tr style="height: 12.75pt;" height="17"> <td colspan="2" style="height: 12.75pt;" height="17">Joey Devine</td> <td>$400,000*</td> </tr> <tr style="height: 12.75pt;" height="17"> <td colspan="2" style="height: 12.75pt;" x:str="Yunel Escobar " height="17">Yunel Escobar </td> <td>$400,000*</td> </tr> <tr style="height: 12.75pt;" height="17"> <td colspan="2" style="height: 12.75pt;" height="17">Bryan Pena</td> <td>$400,000*</td> </tr> <tr style="height: 12.75pt;" height="17"> <td colspan="2" style="height: 12.75pt;" height="17">Martin Prado</td> <td>$400,000*</td> </tr> <tr style="height: 12.75pt;" height="17"> <td colspan="2" style="height: 12.75pt;" height="17">Jo Jo Reyes</td> <td>$400,000*</td> </tr> <tr style="height: 12.75pt;" height="17"> <td colspan="2" style="height: 12.75pt;" x:str="Royce Ring " height="17">Royce Ring </td> <td>$400,000*</td> </tr> <tr style="height: 12.75pt;" height="17"> <td style="height: 12.75pt;" height="17">
</td> <td>
</td> <td>$91.9 million</td> </tr> </tbody></table>
If Wood is signed, the payroll becomes $93.9 million. Also, there is the possibility of bringing back Mahay for $2 million if he agrees and Wood doesn't. Ideally, instead of acquiring Vazquez the Braves would be able to get someone who would cost about half that much, making it possible to trade for Coco Crisp, but I doubt that could be done with the major league ready assets the Braves have and are willing to trade away. Also, if by some miracle Wood be signed and Hampton would prove healthy, Wood could be moved to the bullpen until someone is needed in the rotation. Another potentially wonderful deal would be if the Brewers would like to trade Carlos Villanueva for bullpen help, since he struggled as a reliever which the Brewers desperately need him to be. I'd love to get him for a package that includes a center piece of Joey Devine. I don't include this as part of my plan because I don't have a clue if the Brewers would consider this fair return or not.

[SamtheBravesFan]

I only have one problem with that plan.

Why pigeon-hole our best reliever in Moylan to only pitch in the eighth? This is the folly of the way bullpens are set up right now. Moylan is most valuable as a long reliever, not as a setup man. Jose Ascaino can be a good set-up man.

[KB 34]

I only have one problem with that plan.

Why pigeon-hole our best reliever in Moylan to only pitch in the eighth? This is the folly of the way bullpens are set up right now. Moylan is most valuable as a long reliever, not as a setup man. Jose Ascaino can be a good set-up man.
Needing a long reliever is usually a sign that the game in lost, in which case a good reliever shouldn't be wasted in that situation. If the Braves have a close lead heading into the 8th inning, the pitchers I trust the most to hold the lead are Soriano and Moylan. Granted I'm not a huge fan of the saves statistic so based on the matchup I might use them in different orders, but those are the two I want to see in that situation. In order to see the importance of good relievers pitching late in the game, just remember back to the Remlinger-Reitsma combination and how well that went!

[SamtheBravesFan]

Needing a long reliever is usually a sign that the game in lost, in which case a good reliever shouldn't be wasted in that situation. If the Braves have a close lead heading into the 8th inning, the pitchers I trust the most to hold the lead are Soriano and Moylan. Granted I'm not a huge fan of the saves statistic so based on the matchup I might use them in different orders, but those are the two I want to see in that situation. In order to see the importance of good relievers pitching late in the game, just remember back to the Remlinger-Reitsma combination and how well that went!

I thought the arguement was that good pitchers were being wasted by forcing them into one-inning roles, especially setup men and closers. Why does Moylan have to only pitch one inning, and why only the eighth? Why can't he pitch the seventh AND eighth in a fireman-style role? As well as protecting a lead, Moylan can also keep the Braves in the game.

[KB 34]

I thought the arguement was that good pitchers were being wasted by forcing them into one-inning roles, especially setup men and closers. Why does Moylan have to only pitch one inning, and why only the eighth? Why can't he pitch the seventh AND eighth in a fireman-style role?
What you're talking about doing is redefining what a reliever does, which isn't exactly realistic to expect to happen any time soon. In fact, I'll bet every last BN bux I have that it won't happen this season. With that in mind I laid out those bullpen roles. I honestly don't know exactly how I'd rework bullpens. That would be an interesting concept to think about though.

[jschafer5]

2. Renteria, James, Cormier, Villarreal, and Bryan Pena to the White Sox for Javier Vazquez and Brian Andersen (depth in Richmond)


I'll pass...3 (possible) ML starters plus Renteria for a #3 starter?

Unless Andersen is some super prospect, then no.

[SamtheBravesFan]

What you're talking about doing is redefining what a reliever does, which isn't exactly realistic to expect to happen any time soon. In fact, I'll bet every last BN bux I have that it won't happen this season. With that in mind I laid out those bullpen roles. I honestly don't know exactly how I'd rework bullpens. That would be an interesting concept to think about though.

Well, I still think Moylan isn't the best option for a one-inning setup man. I think he's more valuable if he pitches 1-2 innings.

What I'm saying is I wish the "fireman" role would come back and be used in a regular role. Moylan's the perfect fireman.

[SamtheBravesFan]

[quote=KB 34;145813]2. Renteria, James, Cormier, Villarreal, and Bryan Pena to the White Sox for Javier Vazquez and Brian Andersen (depth in Richmond)
quote]

I'll pass...3 (possible) ML starters plus Renteria for a #3 starter?

Unless Andersen is some super prospect, then no.

I didn't notice that. I remember getting particularly upset when I saw Anderson being mentioned in any kind of trade going to Atlanta. He is no super prospect at all.

[MPH]

It's funny to me how many of you are against signing Schilling but all for bringing in Glavine.

Schilling 2007 13 Million
157 Innings, 3.87 ERA

Glavine 2007 10.5 Million
200.1 Innings, 4.45 ERA

Both pitchers are 41 years old, Schilling pitched less innings, but considering he pitched in the American League did a better job overall.
You make a good point, Preach, they are comparable performers. For many of us though, it's as much about our regard for Glavine as our need to get a Glavine-type pitcher. Sure there are other guys out there, but Glavine is still a good pitcher at a decent price, and we don't have to give up any players to get him. Besides we love the guy and want him back.

[KB 34]

[quote=KB 34;145813]2. Renteria, James, Cormier, Villarreal, and Bryan Pena to the White Sox for Javier Vazquez and Brian Andersen (depth in Richmond)
quote]

I'll pass...3 (possible) ML starters plus Renteria for a #3 starter?

Unless Andersen is some super prospect, then no.
As we just saw with the actual Renteria trade, it takes talent to get talent. It's even worse if you're talking a starting pitcher with the way they're being paid.

Since my plan has been destroyed by Wren, a few things I still expect to happen:
Villarreal will be traded or non-tendered as he's going to get a raise and the money is needed elsewhere, James is gone if you ask me, and I really doubt Pena is around if he's no longer considered to be good enough to catch by the Braves, which appears to be the case.

[Gibby]

Since this thread had moved far off line from where it started, I'll throw my two cents in. Obviously, we've already traded Renteria, so that thwarted my original thoughts, but here's what I might try...

Trade:
Chuck James and Scott Thorman (and maybe a prospect) to A's for Joe Blanton

Signings:
Tom Glavine
Do everything we can to sign Tex long-term

Saying Goodbye (via Free Agency)
Willie Harris
Corky Miller
Chris Woodward
Julio Franco
Andruw Jones
Buddy Carlyle
Octavio Dotel

2008 Lineup
2B Kelly Johnson
SS Yunel Escobar
3B Chipper Jones
1B Mark Texeira
C Brian McCann
RF Jeff Francouer
LF Matt Diaz
CF Brent Lillibridge (Prediction: Rookie of the Year)

2008 Starting Rotation
Tim Hudson
John Smoltz
Joe Blanton
Tom Glavine
Mike Hampton if healthy, if not, possibly Jair Jurrjens

2008 Bullpen
Soriano-CL
Gonzalez-SU
Moylan-SU
Ascanio-MRP
Jeff Bennett-LRP
Villarreal-MRP
Manny Acosta-MRP
Jeff Bennett-LRP
Boyer-LRP

Thoughts?

[HaRdCoReBrAvEsFaN]

just wondering where devine is? he can't pitch in the minors next year for us unless the rest of MLB is full of idiots, and we know a guy in KC that's not...

[C-Dawg]

I'll pass...3 (possible) ML starters plus Renteria for a #3 starter?

Unless Andersen is some super prospect, then no.

Think Corey Patterson but with less speed.

[Gibby]

Oh. My bad. Do we still have Devine next year?

[McCarroll21]

Oh. My bad. Do we still have Devine next year?
We should. I think if any relievers are dealt it will be someone like Acosta, who's value is at it's peak. I think Devine is out of options, as well. That could be a tricky situation since he made it to the majors just months after being drafted so it wouldn't be a full calendar year, but I'm going to assume he is until I see otherwise.

[Enoch]

It would be nice to sign Schilling instead of Glavine...especially if we are going to give up our first rounder for either.

[brnt247]

I would find a way to keep Dotel. I would trade B Jones, James, and maybe one more minor leaguer for Noah Lowry. Sign Josh Fogg or Joey Kennedy. Have a rotation of Smoltz, Hudson, Lowry, Fogg/Kennedy, and JoJo/Jurrjens. I would then make a trade of Gregor Blanco or another ML ready CF option the Braves have to trade as a backup outfielder to the Red Sox along with Boyer for Crisp. I would have a lineup of

1. Kelly Johnson 2B
2. Matt Diaz LF
3. Chipper Jones 3B
4. Mark Teixeira 1B
5. Brian McCann C
6. Jeff Francoeur RF
7. Cocoa Crisp CF
8. Yunel Escobar SS

IF- Brent Lillibridge
IF- Scott Thorman
IF/OF- Willie Harris
C- Corky Miller
IF- Martin Prado

SP- John Smoltz
SP- Tim Hudson
SP- Noah Lowry
SP- Josh Fogg
SP- JoJo Reyes

RP- Lance Cormier
RP- Manny Acosta
RP- Mike Gonzales
RP- Octavio Dotel
RP- Peter Moylan
RP- Royce Ring

CP- Rafael Soriano

[Enoch]

If Dotel gets any compensation (B or A), let him go.

[JCStone7]

If Dotel gets any compensation (B or A), let him go.

Everytime an article of mine is due the next day the BN members bring it up before hand. LOL

FORESHADOWING FTW!!

[Enoch]

Everytime an article of mine is due the next day the BN members bring it up before hand. LOL

FORESHADOWING FTW!!

Where do you write articles? I am a lurker, but I am a voracious reader. Send me the link if it isn't on this board.

It is only obvious that the 5 million we would owe Dotel would be better spent elsewhere (in a starter....our bullpen was actually quite good). A type B compensation would still give us a second round compensation pick...which would be very good ( we could easily draft a pitcher of the Davies caliber if it came down to it...making the original trade a win-win in the long run).

[JCStone7]

Articles (including BN's extensive BN off-season coverage (http://www.braves-nation.com/forums/showthread.php?t=7046)) is found here (http://www.braves-nation.com/forums/forumdisplay.php?f=22)

[josephw000]

Willie already filed didnt he? I wouldnt go get a CF I'd bring one up, Schafer or the kid from Detroit isnt gonna hurt us anymore than trading away some talent for a one year CF replacement who may not produce much more than one of our farm kids. Get Glavine if hes cheap, who knows what our budget will be if we can pull a trade for Harren, send em B Jones, Chuckie and maybe an Acosta or a Minor Leaguer for him if they'd take it I dunno, I just differ on the CF approach then a lot of people, no coco, no Cameron(who got suspended for a stimulant?)give me a kid from the farm.

[Enoch]

I think Coco Crisp would be excellent in Atlanta, but the true question is: Is he too expensive? I believe he is probably a bit too expensive, but if we were able to acquire him and some cash...I think I would be on board with the move (especially if we still went out and got a pitcher).

[jdu00743]

I think Coco Crisp would be excellent in Atlanta, but the true question is: Is he too expensive? I believe he is probably a bit too expensive, but if we were able to acquire him and some cash...I think I would be on board with the move (especially if we still went out and got a pitcher).

What's excellent about him??

Low average, no power...sure he steals a few bases, but no thanks from me.

[cjones1999]

What's excellent about him??

Low average, no power...sure he steals a few bases, but no thanks from me.
x2

[JayDonnelly10]

What's excellent about him??

Low average, no power...sure he steals a few bases, but no thanks from me.


His defense is excellent....Im not so sure I want him or we need him but he plays great Def.

At the plate not so good...

[Enoch]

His defense is gold-clove caliber, he has leadoff ability. The question with his bat pertains to his health IMO. I think he could be a .275 batter pretty consistently. For what he is making - this is too much for us to swallow (hence my comments about price). That said....he would likely do better in the NL, and I suspect his numbers would mirror his final season in Cleveland if traded to Atlanta.

[broke]

We need to not worry about CF......dominate pitcher is what we need. Unfortunately his name isnt Glavine....that wont get it done.

Hopefully the renteria move freed up some cash and the payroll that I know nothing about gets expanded. We need a Santana type pitcher added to our lineup. If we cant afford that and Tex then I say let Tex walk.......i'd rather we win 3-2 than lose 13-11 like we did alot in 07.

[KB 34]

I think it's safe to say that Santana will get in the area of 8 years $160 million as a free agent. Should any pitcher be given that long of a contract? Absolutely not, see Mike Hampton. Like it or not, in order to build a good team with a limited payroll, usually the best players in the game must not be targeted as free agents. There might be exceptions such as when years ago the Braves had a chance at landing A-Rod for well below his real value. Santana will sign for an insane sum, and quite honestly, I won't be sad that the Braves aren't taking on the risk that goes along with such a contract.

[JCStone7]

We need to not worry about CF......dominate pitcher is what we need. Unfortunately his name isnt Glavine....that wont get it done.

Hopefully the renteria move freed up some cash and the payroll that I know nothing about gets expanded. We need a Santana type pitcher added to our lineup. If we cant afford that and Tex then I say let Tex walk.......i'd rather we win 3-2 than lose 13-11 like we did alot in 07.

I disagree. I think re-signing Teixeira is a priority. Chipper won't play forever and Atlanta doesn't have the pitching depth or age to be getting in pitching duels. After Smoltz and Glavine ride off into Cooperstown all they can do is hand the ball off to Huddy, Jurrjens, and Reyes with the biggest power hitter being Jeff Francoeur or a young Jason Heyward.

[jschafer5]

Hopefully the renteria move freed up some cash and the payroll that I know nothing about gets expanded. We need a Santana type pitcher added to our lineup. If we cant afford that and Tex then I say let Tex walk.......i'd rather we win 3-2 than lose 13-11 like we did alot in 07.

We aren't even gonna be close to be able to offer what most teams will for Santana. Also, we really dont need him for that much money, sure he'd be nice to have, but for the amount of money, I'll take 2 other good (and young) players.

I agree with Stone, signing Teix should be a priority. Just by adding a good #3 starter for cheaper would be more beneficial than paying out the ass for Santana.

Not to mention, we have (basically) a 0% chance of signing A-rod or Santana.

[Enoch]

Dotel not rated in ELIAS rankings, Andruw gets a B.....meanwhile Glavine gets an A (ouch)

[SamtheBravesFan]

Hey, maybe this will discourage us from taking the risk on Glavine. :)

[HaRdCoReBrAvEsFaN]

I think we still end up signing him, but I think it might push it back till after the arb deadline to see if Mets possibly decline it...

[Hobbes]

I think we still end up signing him, but I think it might push it back till after the arb deadline to see if Mets possibly decline it...
I really think it is a scenario of play for the Braves or retire for Glavine. So there is no rush and I agree the Braves would likely wait until the arb deadline. But I would think the Mets would offer him arbitration, since Glavine didn't exercise his option anyway and they wouldn't see much risk in him accepting arbitration. They'll want those draft picks.

[PhantomsCV]

First thing I would do is trade Edgar for 2 prospects to the Tigers. I'll tell you later what I would do next.

[Sylentman]

Not taking Glavine because of his age unless we need a SP so badly.

After trading Renteria, things might change so let's see what happens to the Braves organization.

[JCStone7]

First thing I would do is trade Edgar for 2 prospects to the Tigers. I'll tell you later what I would do next.

Um k, I think we should file this in File 13.

[crossxcheck]

Anyone else think that most likely the opening day rotation will be:

smoltz
hudson
glavine
james
reyes/jurrjens

I'm not saying that's what I think they should do, I am just thinking they'll sign glavine for $7-8m and maybe sign a mid-range veteran for $3-5m and then focus all remaining funds on extending Tex. Any thoughts?

[JCStone7]

I believe the 2008 rotation will be more like this:

Hudson
Smoltz
Pitcher acquired via trade (Joe Blanton or Dan Haren)
Tom Glavine
Jurrjens/Reyes

I think Wren is going to make Brandon Jones and Chuck James in a package of prospects to send to Billy Beane for one of the two pitchers I’ve named.

[crossxcheck]

I believe the 2008 rotation will be more like this:

Hudson
Smoltz
Pitcher acquired via trade (Joe Blanton or Dan Haren)
Tom Glavine
Jurrjens/Reyes

I think Wren is going to make Brandon Jones and Chuck James in a package of prospects to send to Billy Beane for one of the two pitchers I’ve named.

I sure hope you're right. Haren or Blanton would be just what the doctor ordered. Maybe we could just sign Redman back :D And maybe danny kolb too :rolleyes:

[Corvette]

Does everyone suspect that Hampton won't be able to pitch next year? I'd figure he'd at least be able to start the season. It'd really show how cheap ownership is if we started the season with:

Smoltz
Hudson
Hampton
Jurrjens
James

[Hobbes]

I believe the 2008 rotation will be more like this:

Hudson
Smoltz
Pitcher acquired via trade (Joe Blanton or Dan Haren)
Tom Glavine
Jurrjens/Reyes

I think Wren is going to make Brandon Jones and Chuck James in a package of prospects to send to Billy Beane for one of the two pitchers I’ve named.
Not singling you out Stoney, but why do folks keep lumping Blanton and Haren together? It would take significantly more to acquire Haren than it would Blanton. They are not equivalent pitchers.

[jschafer5]

Does everyone suspect that Hampton won't be able to pitch next year? I'd figure he'd at least be able to start the season. It'd really show how cheap ownership is if we started the season with:

Smoltz
Hudson
Hampton
Jurrjens
James

That was our problem last year. We were hoping Hampton could come back for as a #3, but when he was injured, he didnt have anybody for a #3 (James barely getting into the 6th). So...pretending that Hampton isnt going to be here would be nice, then anything we get from him is a bonus.

[crossxcheck]

That was our problem last year. We were hoping Hampton could come back for as a #3, but when he was injured, he didnt have anybody for a #3 (James barely getting into the 6th). So...pretending that Hampton isnt going to be here would be nice, then anything we get from him is a bonus.

I agree. I myself have essentially put hampton out of my mind. He hasn't played a single game in 2.5 years. To expect him to even be our #5 this year is stretching it IMO.

Also, the haren and blanton rumors started a few weeks ago because it was in some article (but I cannot remember where) that mentioned that the A's and Braves would make good trading partners and that haren and blanton were possibilities. I would love Haren on the team, but I just don't see it happening. But, hey, if I'm wrong on this one I'll be excited to be wrong!

[JCStone7]

Not singling you out Stoney, but why do folks keep lumping Blanton and Haren together? It would take significantly more to acquire Haren than it would Blanton. They are not equivalent pitchers.

I'm not saying their equivalent, I just put them together cuz I'm hear we are after one or the other.

[Scalpel19]

Blanton will cost less.
Haren will cost more.
Blanton is a number 2 (at best) -number 3
Haren is an ace about to break out like Beckett has.

Who would you rather have? Sometimes you pay more to get more and Haren is definitely worth it. But Blanton is another great option. But Haren's an excellent one

[GTBrave]

I take Blanton. I seriously doubt Haren coming to the Braves.

[JayDonnelly10]

I take Blanton. I seriously doubt Haren coming to the Braves.

Blanton cause it would take less to get him! Haren is going to cost us the rest of the farm system we didnt give up for Teix.

[PhantomsCV]

24 of the active roster was born after 1/1/1980. I think that might consider our team as a young team. Frenchy, McCann and Kelly are at latest in the middle of their 2nd year in the bigs. chipper and Smoltz are the only players that played in the 90s with the Braves. I don't think it would kill us to give up the rest of the farm to get someone like Haren.

[J.Devine27]

Very early in the offseason for this but I'm bored.

My opening day guess for the rotation:

1.Smoltz
2.Hudson
3.Glavine(assuming)
4.Hampton
5.James

Obviously I'm not confident that Hampton will be healthy and reliable all year but I don't see much reason to think he won't be ready to start the season. Dude's making like $15 mil. I don't think you can assume another freak oblique injury will occur. In the scenario where he's not ready I think Reyes is put in the rotation. Bobby seems to really like him and thinks he can be a #2 or 3 in the future. Can't say I agree with the 27 to 30 K/BB but maybe he'll improve. Bennett, Cormier and Carlyle are solid backup plans but there isn't any room for them so I'm not sure what their fate is as far as triple A for bullpen. For the record I don't understand the Chuck James hate by braves fans. I realize he gives up home runs and struggled going late in games this year but he's a high 3, low 4 ERA guy and that's good enough when you have a strong bullpen like we have now.

Speaking of bullpen my opening day guess would be:

Closer-Soriano
Set up-Moylan
MR-Acosta, Yates, Devine, Ring
LR-Carlyle, Cormier (if we don't re-sign Villareal and depeding on how many BP arms BC uses)

Then obviously Gonzalez whenever he's ready. There's really not that much wiggle room with the bullpen so I'd have to say that's fairly accurate. I guess I'm saying that we don't bring anyone else in though. Dotel and Mayah are gone which is very unfortunate but it saves us some nice $.

Lineup
1. Yunel Escobar SS
2. Kelly Johnson 2b
3. Chipper Jones 3b
4. Mark Teixera 1b
5. Brian McCann C
6. Jeff Francouer RF
7. Matt Diaz/ B.Jones LF
8. ?

Center field is where I'm just waiting and seeing. Personally I strongly disagree with the thought that Lillibridge should be handed the job. I need to see at least a few more months of him at Triple A. He's going to save money but he's also going to give you a sad OPS and likely less than stellar defense. Schafer is too young plain and simple. He is getting talked up way too much. Willie Harris is a no. Hunter is too expensive, Griffey is not happening. I really don't see Mike Cameron happening; still too expensive and suspended. So I guess it's a trade for someone that no one sees coming or signing a Patterson type unless Wren goes with one of the young ones. Personally I'd like to see a trade or maybe signing Rowand for three years. But that might be too long.

Bench

Harris
Prado
Sammons
Aybar
Pena
Thorman

Ok that's all I got

[Corvette]

with the Mike Cameron suspension seemingly erasing his chances of coming to atlanta (I didn't like the idea anyway, he's the poor man's Andruw Jones). I'm pretty set on Lillibridge taking over center, with Diaz starting in left, and I believe that Brandon Jones would be used best in a trade. This brings me to the insurance for centerfield. I know Mark Bowman has mentioned this on Braves.com, but getting Jacque Jones from the Cubs maybe for Villareal and also the Cubs picking up a portion of the salary, Jones could provide a veteran to cover left and center occasionally and a good left-handed bat off the bench. At the very least Jones hits rightys well and Lillibridge hits lefties well and they could make a good platoon in center.

[cjones1999]

Other notes:
Villareal starts season in AAA to regain stamina.
I fully stand by this idea.

[CB1]

What would I do in offseason?

A) Sign Glavine
B) Trade for Griffey ( :mrgreen: )
C) Sign Tex to an extension
D) Sign another starter or trade for another pitcher.

[BGarrett7]

Villareal starts season in AAA to regain stamina.Uh... what stamina?

[KB 34]

Wouldn't Villarreal have to pass through waivers to be sent to AAA? I also don't see how the Braves could justify paying him over $1 million to pitch in AAA.

[McCarroll21]

I will post my blueprint at some point tomorrow. Prepare yourselves.

[GTBrave]

You convinced me I put in Sammons over Miller. The bench is a (?) because I am making two more trades but this is what I think.

Pre-2008
David DeJesus and Joe Blanton (more realistic than Haren IMO) aquired via trade of Thorman, Chuckie, Acosta, Prado, Brandon Jones. Obviously two trades those are just the five I'd expect to go.

Glavine signed 1 year 8.5mil option for 2009

Renteria trade of course that already took place

Lineup
1. Escobar - ss
2. Johnson - 2b
3. Chipper - 3b
4. Teixiera - 1b
5. Frenchy - rf
6. Mac - c
7. Diaz - lf
8. DeJesus - cf
9. Pitcher

Bench
Pena - utility
Sammons - backup catcher
Aybar - Chipper backup
Blanco - OF
--- (Canizares? I don't know I think Thorman is traded)

Rotation
Smoltz R
Hudson R
Glavine L
Blanton R
Hampton L / JJ R

Pen
Soriano Closer
Gonzo Setup 7th
Moylan Setup 8th
Ring Lefty Specialist
Devine MR
Ascanio MR
Boyer LR

[SamtheBravesFan]

I'll take a shot at it:

Starting Lineup
1. 2B Kelly Johnson
2. LF Matt Diaz
3. 3B Chipper Jones
4. 1B Mark Teixeira
5. C Brian Mccann
6. RF Jeff Francoeur
7. SS Yunel Escobar
8. CF Josh Anderson

Bench
C Clint Sammons
2B-3B Willy Aybar
1B-LF Scott Thorman
SS-CF Brent Lillibridge
OF Willie Harris

Starting Rotation
1. Tim Hudson
2. John Smoltz
3. Joe Blanton
4. Tom Glavine
5. Mike Hampton (Buddy Carlyle/Jo-Jo Reyes/Jair Jurrjens)

Bullpen
CL: Rafael Soriano
SU: Peter Moylan (Mike Gonzalez)
MR: Tyler Yates
SR: Manny Acosta
LS: Royce Ring
LR: (Peter Moylan)
LR: Jeff Bennett

This roster is more based on what I would do with the team as it is constructed right now.

[josephw000]

I guess this is mine...I'm not to sure on who has a roster move left on their contract...but here goes...
I'm thinking B Jones and James for Harren, might include Accosta or Ascanio. Anderson is it for CF. Glavine signs. Schafer makes a roster spot in spring with Lilli and Aybar. No Mike Gonzalez till mid year. No Mahay, No Dotel. Devine and Ring are called up for permenant. Fair guess I suppose.....But really, who fricking knows, I'm just bored at work....

Lineup
1. Yunel Escobar
2. Kelly Johnson
3. Chipper Jones
4. Mark Teixera
5. Jeff Francouer
6. Brian McCann
7. Matt Diaz
8. Josh Anderson
9. Pitcher

Bench

C-Sammons
1B-Thorman
UI-Lillibridge
UO-Schafer
3B-Aybar

Starters
Smoltz
Hudson
Harren
Glavine
Hampton

Relievers
CL-Soriano
SU-Moylan
RP-Devine
RP-Ascanio
RP-Accosta
RP-Ring
RP-Boyer

Boyers spot I can see going either way towards Jurjens/JoJo to give them some long relief innings and experience. If Schafer isnt up then maybe Prado in his spot, but I think Schafer will get a roster spot in spring if he does well.

to round out the 40 man...
CF-Blano
UI-Orr
C-Pena
UI-Prado
UO-Hernandez

RP-Stockman
SP-JoJo
SP-Jurjens
SP-Lerew
RP-Gonzalez
SP-Carlyle
RP-Resop?
SP-Cormier
SP-Bennet
RP-Jung

[nickzilla6066]

Question, do people actually believe that we are going to get Haren or Blanton or is this just wishing? All I keep hearing is Haren this and Blanton that and I've already gone on record saying the A's would be retarded to move either unless completely overwhelmed. Just wondering what others are thinking though.

[KB 34]

Question, do people actually believe that we are going to get Haren or Blanton or is this just wishing? All I keep hearing is Haren this and Blanton that and I've already gone on record saying the A's would be retarded to move either unless completely overwhelmed. Just wondering what others are thinking though.
I personally think the packages people are suggesting for either are laughable. In Haren, the A's have a really good young top of the rotation pitcher with a relatively long term contract. I've looked at their salary situation and I see a lot of players I'd trade before him to save money. A realistic first offer might be Hayward, Lillibridge, Brandon Jones, Jurrjens, and Tommy Hanson (I haven't done much research here but even this would probably not be enough). Don't like the sound of the package? Think back to what the Braves gave up to get a (probable) 1.5 year rental of Teix. If you were an A's fan, you wouldn't want to lose Haren and would laugh at the kind of offers being posted here as well. For Blanton, I can see a lesser package working, but it would still probably require Jones, Lillibridge, Devine, and either Chuck James and others or Reyes or Jurrjens. There is absolutely no reason for teams to give up good starting pitchers right now with how hard it is to get a reasonably priced starter and the dreams that the Braves can find one for free are nothing but dreams.

[farbisimo]

I personally think the packages people are suggesting for either are laughable. In Haren, the A's have a really good young top of the rotation pitcher with a relatively long term contract. I've looked at their salary situation and I see a lot of players I'd trade before him to save money. A realistic first offer might be Hayward, Lillibridge, Brandon Jones, Jurrjens, and Tommy Hanson (I haven't done much research here but even this would probably not be enough). Don't like the sound of the package? Think back to what the Braves gave up to get a (probable) 1.5 year rental of Teix. If you were an A's fan, you wouldn't want to lose Haren and would laugh at the kind of offers being posted here as well. For Blanton, I can see a lesser package working, but it would still probably require Jones, Lillibridge, Devine, and either Chuck James and others or Reyes or Jurrjens. There is absolutely no reason for teams to give up good starting pitchers right now with how hard it is to get a reasonably priced starter and the dreams that the Braves can find one for free are nothing but dreams.

I couldn't agree with you more. It's unrealistic to think we're getting either of these pitchers with a package like the ones being talked about. Also, what makes everyone think that FW is going to even talk to Oakland about their picthers when he's said a number of times that he's going to focus on other areas of the team once they sign Tom Glavine. A realistic rotation for next year has Glavine and Hampton pitching 3 and 4, respectively.

[josephw000]

I couldn't agree with you more. It's unrealistic to think we're getting either of these pitchers with a package like the ones being talked about. Also, what makes everyone think that FW is going to even talk to Oakland about their picthers when he's said a number of times that he's going to focus on other areas of the team once they sign Tom Glavine. A realistic rotation for next year has Glavine and Hampton pitching 3 and 4, respectively.


A Good point to be pushed is the fact that why in the hell would you listen to what Frank says in regards to the future transacations he will or will not make...I sure don't remember hearing Teix was headed our wayfrom them, even though the rumors we're flying.

It's like going to a car lot and saying your here to by an New Acura...there gonna get you for everything your worth. Play the field, I wouldn't tip my hand to anyone about what I'm gonna do, sure let's brag about wanting to pick up an A...then if I'm Billy Beane, I've got the advantage...

I'm not saying its necesarily a trade with the A's, but your a fool if a GM tells you something and you buy it out the gate. I think Frank def has something up his sleeve in regards to getting us another Starting arm....of course if the price is right...

[Hobbes]

People seem to continously think we can trade our dregs for other teams' gold.

[cjones1999]

People seem to continously think we can trade our dregs for other teams' gold.
Tell me about it. I feel that there is no way in hell that we could get Haren.

[nickzilla6066]

People seem to continously think we can trade our dregs for other teams' gold.

Exactly. I can't really see Tim Hudson part 2 happening anytime soon, not unless you want to include Teix, Frenchy, McCann or someone else of actual + value to the deal.

[josephw000]

Tell me about it. I feel that there is no way in hell that we could get Haren.


Lot of people figured we couldn't get Teix either...but yah who knows if they wanna dump their "star" if they dont maybe we could look elsewhere....I havent heard or seen that Harren or Blanton is untouchable....

[nickzilla6066]

Lot of people figured we couldn't get Teix either...but yah who knows if they wanna dump their "star" if they dont maybe we could look elsewhere....I havent heard or seen that Harren or Blanton is untouchable....

IDK about that, I think everyone knew we could get Teix, it was more a debate about should we get him. I remember a lot of people were arguing that Salty was the next Teix in the making and that Harrison could be an ace so they thought the price was steep, especially when others of us wanted the focus to be on that nonexistent number 3 pitcher deal that never materialized.

Dammit, I still want Javy Vasquez for that matter. :D

[mark4004]

In the off season I would try to upgrade our rotation by signing Glavine and going after a solid number three starter such as Haren or Blanton "hopefully Haren." Then I would work towards getting a halfway decent outfielder as a stopgap for Schaffer and/or Lillibridge. after that I would work towards giving Tex and Jeff an extension. Knowing that lightening doesn't strike twice in the same spot aka landing Haren and Hudson back to back from the A's. I would go after a real number three.

[nickzilla6066]

...I would go after a real number three.

That could be an interesting debate right there, what is a "true number 3?" I could really envision an array of answers to that question. Does he have to be an "innings eater" or could he just be pretty good through 5 innings like Clemens or Jarret Wright (a few years ago at least) or even Chuck for that matter. Can league average count as three or does that bump you more into the 4 category?

I think everyone has their vision of what a "true 3" is and most are probably quite similar but the more I think about it the more nebulous that designation seems. Ace (1-2 in the rotation, if you are lucky at least) is almost self explanatory, if he takes the mound and is expected to win even if the opposing team is better, if he dominates more often than not, he is probably an ace. Fifth starter, the dude you found at Value-Mart who more often than not is just the placeholder. What exactly distinguishes the 3 or even 4 though? I have my opinion of what it means but am curious to see what others think.

[JCStone7]

A true #3 is a guy who will give you 175+ innings and will go 6 innings with a chance for the win and will give 13-15 wins per year annually. Basically good stuff, but not stuff that is ace-worthy.

[nickzilla6066]

A true #3 is a guy who will give you 175+ innings and will go 6 innings with a chance for the win and will give 13-15 wins per year annually. Basically good stuff, but not stuff that is ace-worthy.

That is about what my conception is as well, I imagine most would agree. Ace-light is how I might term it, something better than average but not great.

[tkane11]

Give Brent Lillibridge a little more time in Richmond. He needs to work more in center field, he will be a future all star.

[josephw000]

A true #3 is a guy who will give you 175+ innings and will go 6 innings with a chance for the win and will give 13-15 wins per year annually. Basically good stuff, but not stuff that is ace-worthy.

Basiclly what Tom did last year....and assuming he doesnt fall flat in a year should do again...

[JCStone7]

Basiclly what Tom did last year....and assuming he doesnt fall flat in a year should do again...

To be honest, I believe that Glavine will be a #4 for us this year. #3 at the worst.

[nickzilla6066]

To be honest, I believe that Glavine will be a #4 for us this year. #3 at the worst.

If Glavine is 4 who is your 3, Chuck or Hamps? I think Hampton actually can and hopefully will be productive enough to fill the 3 spot but the injury bug may still be stalking him. Let us hope not.

[josephw000]

To be honest, I believe that Glavine will be a #4 for us this year. #3 at the worst.

Eh, anything is better than what we had, hopefulyl he'll perform really well and this will be a miracle season for us....or a disaster depending on which way you look at it.

[JCStone7]

If Glavine is 4 who is your 3, Chuck or Hamps? I think Hampton actually can and hopefully will be productive enough to fill the 3 spot but the injury bug may still be stalking him. Let us hope not.

I'm still under the impression that we will deal for a #3

[josephw000]

I'm still under the impression that we will deal for a #3


I am too, but the only 3's I hear of are from Oakland...and everyone says that's impossible unless we give them Teix, Chipper and Warner Bros.

[McCarroll21]

I'm still under the impression that we will deal for a #3
I'm with you. If it's not Haren or Blanton, take a loot at Arroyo (who we had interest in at the deadline).

[JCStone7]

I am too, but the only 3's I hear of are from Oakland...and everyone says that's impossible unless we give them Teix, Chipper and Warner Bros.

It's not impossible. Blanton is very much a easily tradable for.

[Jsh1284]

Yeah, I'm sure there are others out there for the right price. As usual, we probably won't see it coming. Kind of like when we got Andy Ashby back in 01. Complete suprise move for a #3 type.

[nickzilla6066]

I am too, but the only 3's I hear of are from Oakland...and everyone says that's impossible unless we give them Teix, Chipper and Warner Bros.

I wouldn't take it that far but Haren or Blanton would definitely take a hell of a lot more than the Chuck James and a handful of A or A+ prospects that people keep bandying about. If we trade for another pitcher I would imagine it would be someone lower profile and from a team that is older and needs to get cheap young players. Maybe the Dodgers or Giants or someone like that.

[josephw000]

I wouldn't take it that far but Haren or Blanton would definitely take a hell of a lot more than the Chuck James and a handful of A or A+ prospects that people keep bandying about. If we trade for another pitcher I would imagine it would be someone lower profile and from a team that is older and needs to get cheap young players. Maybe the Dodgers or Giants or someone like that.


But who...I mean rumor wise I havent heard anything but what we've already talked about, Harren and Blanton...What other #3 type is there? Lowry I guess?

[nickzilla6066]

But who...I mean rumor wise I haven't heard anything but what we've already talked about, Harren and Blanton...What other #3 type is there? Lowry I guess?

Who really knows just yet. Lowry is pretty much Chuck James 2 so I wouldn't really call him a 3 but there certainly are other guys out there. Rumors are just rumors at this point.

I think the Haren/Blanton thing is just overblown because of B.B. dangling Blanton at the trade deadline to see if a team like the Mets or Dodgers would go overboard on a deal. In retrospect either probably should have, Millege, Humber and whoever the hell else they wanted for Blanton wouldn't seem so ridiculous if they would have known they'd miss the playoffs.

[vnodnarb]

But who...I mean rumor wise I havent heard anything but what we've already talked about, Harren and Blanton...What other #3 type is there? Lowry I guess?

There are plenty that fit that mold, here's a few...

James Shields
Brian Bannister
Tom Gorzelanny
Rich Hill
Joe Blanton
Dustin McGowan
Bronson Arroyo
Doug Davis
Chad Gaudin

[josephw000]

There are plenty that fit that mold, here's a few...

James Shields
Brian Bannister
Tom Gorzelanny
Rich Hill
Joe Blanton
Dustin McGowan
Bronson Arroyo
Doug Davis
Chad Gaudin


Whoa...most of those guys dont fit a #3 bill to me....and some of em are damned expensive...(Arroyo)which is why I thoguht we didnt go after him in the first place...

Blanton obviosully. Hill I liked as well....not too familiar with a few of the other guys.

[nickzilla6066]

There are plenty that fit that mold, here's a few...

James Shields
Brian Bannister
Tom Gorzelanny
Rich Hill
Joe Blanton
Dustin McGowan
Bronson Arroyo
Doug Davis
Chad Gaudin

Vnodnarb actually pegs the guy I could see Oakland trading (again, not necessarily to us, I do think Glavine is our last move, hope I'm wrong of course). Gaudin had such a good start (and such a mediocre finish) last year that I wouldn't be shocked if teams would inquire about him and hope to strike gold. He is the kind of guy you could probably get for a fifth starter and good prospects, if you wanted to do such a thing that is, considering he may not be much better than a 4 when the dust settles. Again, doubt he would be moved by a price conscious A's either.

Wow, the more I think of it their pitching is damn cheap. Haren, Blanton, Gaudin, Street, do all them together even come close to Huddy's commitment?

[tigerfan]

I'm thinking B Jones and James for Harren, might include Accosta or Ascanio.
i love the might include. as if it would be overpaying with just the first two.

[vnodnarb]

Vnodnarb actually pegs the guy I could see Oakland trading (again, not necessarily to us, I do think Glavine is our last move, hope I'm wrong of course). Gaudin had such a good start (and such a mediocre finish) last year that I wouldn't be shocked if teams would inquire about him and hope to strike gold. He is the kind of guy you could probably get for a fifth starter and good prospects, if you wanted to do such a thing that is, considering he may not be much better than a 4 when the dust settles. Again, doubt he would be moved by a price conscious A's either.

Wow, the more I think of it their pitching is damn cheap. Haren, Blanton, Gaudin, Street, do all them together even come close to Huddy's commitment?

I agree and just wrote that while editing my post where I added in stats and salaries until I closed the wrong window and lost it all.

[nickzilla6066]

I agree and just wrote that while editing my post where I added in stats and salaries until I closed the wrong window and lost it all.

I hate when that happens, or when you take too long writing a response and get logged off. Sweet.