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McCarroll21
10-08-2007, 02:34 PM
Will 2008 Mark Tom Glavine's Return To Atlanta?
By: Josh McCarroll (http://www.braves-nation.com/forums/member.php?u=1) | Braves-Nation.com

If you are anything like me, when you think of Tom Glavine, you have two clearly separate groups of memories. For me, the memories of him as a Brave outweigh the hatred, for lack of a better word, of his times with the Mets. One has to remember that it was Tom Glavine that brought the Braves their lone World Series title during the magical run of fourteen straight division titles. When I think of Tom Glavine, I like to think of the World Series MVP, the 16 years of service with the Braves, and remembering when he teamed up with Greg Maddux and John Smoltz to give the Braves the most dominate pitching in all of baseball, not the dark days brought on by him pitching for the Braves most heated rival.

Where does that same scenario lie within you? Would you want Tom Glavine back with the Braves or are you one of those that find it hard to forgive him for going to New York?

As you think about that, you probably know by now that Glavine has declined his option that would have allowed him to go back to New York and pitch one more season with the Mets. This is important for the Braves because it sets up a possible Glavine return.

Glavine and the Braves went down this road last off-season and the Braves ran out of time to get a deal done. Due to other payroll obligations, the team was going to have to trade a player, maybe two, to make it possible for them to even offer a contract. They couldn't get that done soon enough, forcing Glavine to honor a handshake agreement to let the Mets know of his plans by the start of Winter Meetings.

When discussing his notion of declining the option, Glavine was quoted as saying, "Atlanta is home. The hardest thing for me in New York is playing and being away from home. I've played in New York for five years now. I'm at the point where my wife and kids are making sacrifices for me."

From the sound of that, he's leaning toward returning to Atlanta. Whether that is upon his retirement or to pitch for the Braves, he clearly wants to be closer to home.

Knowing this, would the Braves want him back?

When John Smoltz was asked about the idea, he responded by saying, "I hope so. He can still pitch. He can still win baseball games."

Chipper Jones had the same type of sentiment: "You bring a guy in who's the quality of [Glavine], and take him away from one of the key [opponents] in our division, yeah, the balance of power could certainly shift in the National League East. He's a guy who's going to go out there for 35-36 starts and give you quality innings."

The two leaders of the clubhouse have gone on record saying they want him back, but what about the man with all the control? When John Schuerholz was asked about the same situation from a year ago, he responded by saying, "Absolutely we [wanted Glavine]. We spent a lot of time trying to create a situation where we could bring Tommy back. That means we were trying to make deals that would free up space on our payroll to fit him in. ... And it just didn't work. It might have in a day or two."

It's clear that the Braves are definitely interested in a Glavine return, but does it make sense from the Braves prospective? Does Glavine give the Braves what they need to be a better team?

The first thing that needs to be understood is that Glavine is no longer the pitcher the Braves had throughout the 90s. Though the Mets had him pretend to be one in 2007, Glavine is also no longer capable of being the ace of a staff. He may be able to pitch like an ace at times, but at this point in his career he is better suited as a pitcher that provides stability to the middle of a rotation. Over his 21 year career, Glavine has not spent a single day on the disabled list and is a near lock to make 30-plus starts. Glavine has made 30 starts in every full season -- those not shortened by strike -- that he has been in the league except 1989, when he made 29. He has gone over 200 innings in every full season since 1990 except for 183 innings in 2003 and 198 innings in 2006.

What does that mean to the Braves? Consider that in 2007 the Braves had two starters pitch 200 innings, John Smoltz and Tim Hudson. In the 96 games started by someone other than Smoltz or Hudson, Braves starters averaged just 5.18 innings per start and had a combined 5.56 ERA. In 2007, Tom Glavine averaged 5.89 innings per start with a 4.45 ERA. Prior to the last three starts of the season, in which Glavine struggled mightily, he averaged 6.16 innings per start with a 3.88 ERA.

Glavine made four more starts and pitched 39 more innings than any of the pitchers the Braves used in the 3-5 spots in the rotation in 2007. To illustrate the lack of innings given to the Braves by the 3-5 spots in the rotation, using an average of 5.18 innings per start, the 39 extra innings alone were good enough to cover 7.5 starts made by any pitcher outside of Smoltz and Hudson in 2007.

Beyond giving the Braves more production out of the middle of the rotation, Glavine would bring 20-plus years of experience to help mentor the young left-handed pitchers on the staff -- namely Chuck James and Jo-Jo Reyes, assuming either of them are still with the team in 2008.

Now that the increase in production over the options the Braves currently have at their expense is clear, the next question is if the Braves can afford to bring him in.

By declining his option for 2008, Glavine is to be given $3 million by the Mets. His 2007 contract called for $7.5 million, plus the guaranteed $3 million buyout or a $9 million option for 2008. His option actually increased in value due to innings pitched and was actually worth $13 million for 2008, had he chosen to exercise it. I feel that because he already has $3 million to help off-set any decrease in salary, the Braves would be able to sign Glavine for one year with a contract between $7 and $8 million. That will take him to a total of $10-11 million for 2008, almost equal the pay he would have gotten from the Mets, with the added bonus of being at home and around his family.

Is Tom Glavine, as a 42-year old pitcher, worth $7.5 million per season? Think that Glavine is a virtual lock to give his team 190 innings over at least 30 starts, and to be on the safe side, factor in an ERA between 4.00-4.50.

To put those numbers in perspective, Barry Zito, last year's marquee free agent pitcher, signed a seven-year, $126 million contract ($18 million/year) and finished 2007 with a 4.53 ERA in 196.2 innings. Jason Marquis (4.60 ERA, 191.2 IP) and Adam Eaton (6.29 ERA, 161.2 IP) received contracts that averaged out to $7 million and $8 million per year, respectively.

It's clear that Glavine is needed in Atlanta's rotation in 2008, and not just for a feel good return, either. His stability would take the Braves a step in the right direction of correcting the one lone sore spot from the 2007 Braves, quality starting pitching behind Hudson and Smoltz. It's also clear that Glavine for $8 million per season or less is well worth the investment in this type of free agent market.

Glavine is to have made his decision as to whether he wants to retire or continue pitching, and for which team, by the beginning of November. It's not supposed to be as much of a drawn out process as last winter, so hopefully, the Braves can get a deal done with Glavine soon after his decision is made, allowing Schuerholz to move on and address other areas of the team.

McCarroll21
10-08-2007, 02:35 PM
I want to apologize beforehand for the length of the article. I tried to cut it down but, to me, it all needed to be there.

KB21
10-08-2007, 02:40 PM
Not only am I for Glavine coming back and finishing his career as a Brave, I'd also like to see Greg Maddux come back and give the trio their last ride. I know the latter won't happen, but I'd sure like to see it.

JCStone7
10-08-2007, 02:41 PM
I want to apologize beforehand for the length of the article. I tried to cut it down but, to me, it all needed to be there.

Don't worry about it, it was a nice read. Excellent part 1 of the extensive off-season coverage.

Mine I believe is longer - Coming Thursday

JCStone7
10-08-2007, 02:58 PM
Not only am I for Glavine coming back and finishing his career as a Brave, I'd also like to see Greg Maddux come back and give the trio their last ride. I know the latter won't happen, but I'd sure like to see it.

Let's get it done

http://i33.photobucket.com/albums/d80/madamsteph/Sports/glavinemadduxsauna.jpg:bow:

renba22
10-08-2007, 03:06 PM
At first I didn't want the Braves to bring back Glavine again, but the reality is that the pitchers out in the free agency, he is the one that can still pitch much better than the others. To honor this articles here are some Glavine's highlights in a braves uniform:

1987- made his debut on August 17 against Houston Astros

JayDonnelly10
10-08-2007, 03:16 PM
I cant wait till he actually signs with us....it will be a happy day!

HaRdCoReBrAvEsFaN
10-08-2007, 03:24 PM
Great Article and start Josh....While I was never a huge Glavine fan when he was with ATL, I always enjoyed having him on the team and being able to watch him pitch....What he did for us throughout his tenor here was amazing all things considered....Sure there were better pitchers with better stuff and better #'s, but in terms of pitch ability he was as good as any LH during his Time here...

When he left for the Mets I felt betrayed like he had stabbed us in the back...and to make it even worse it was all for 1 extra year on the contract in which Glavine should have known that he would be taken care of after that deal ran out without a doubt....so for his time in NY I despised him(hates such as strong word) and found it hard to wish him any success what so ever(his last 2 starts as a Brave in the 2002 NLDS didn't help things either)...I greatly enjoyed the beat downs we gave him when we got to face him and even booed him when I saw him pitch in a Mets Uniform.

However as his 1st contract with the Mets started coming to an end I finally decided that all the years of greatness that Tommy gave us were worth forgiving him for finally ,but I was still against the idea of brining him back because of the age factor and not wanting him to take a young pitchers place....But I was still open to him returning if it didn't do that....This year however made me realize that Tommy deserves to come home. He deserves to finish where he started and help us return some winning pride to ATL.

The inconstancies of our rotation out side of Smoltz,Hudson,James(yeah in the big picture of last yr 5 IP 3 ER was at least better than what the 4-5 guys gave us) makes me want Glavine to return even more....I think we can get 30+ Starts and 190+ Innings from Glavine next year....I think he'd be a strong step forward in building a rotation that we can get an avg of 32 Games Started and 192 Innings...Yes Smoltz,Huddy more than likely will get over 200 innings ,but If we can get an avg of 32 Starts from 5 Set Starters and average of 6 innings a game from each of them then we will be the 2008 NL East Champions....

HaRdCoReBrAvEsFaN
10-08-2007, 03:26 PM
OK maybe in 4 blocks it will be easier for you guys to read than it was as 1 huge block...

milbraves
10-08-2007, 03:44 PM
I think it would be interesting to find out what historical precedents there are for pitchers Glavine's age. I mean, of all the forty one year old pitchers who have returned to pitch the next season, at age 42, how many of them improved on the previous season's performance? Conversely, how many of them saw their performances fall off? How much? I feel these answers will be very valuable in getting a better idea of what can be expected of Tom Glavine for next season. I will scrounge up this info and post it when i'm done.

McCarroll21
10-08-2007, 03:46 PM
I think any concerns about him pitching at 42 are wiped out by his still solid performances at 38, 39, 40 and 41.

I just don't see any reason to think he won't be able to continue to pitch. If he were a power pitcher or a pitcher with history of arm trouble, that may be different, but it's not like he's given you any reason to feel he can't continuously hit his location and make the pitches he needs to make. His age wouldn't be a concern of mine. You won't find any more of a guarantee to make all the starts and give you close to 200 innings than Tom Glavine.

The best part is that he's still got the ability to make his roster spot worth it, therefore, not just a move to make for sentimental purposes. He can still do his job, and do it well.

milbraves
10-08-2007, 04:13 PM
Jamie Moyer-(age40) 21-7, 215 IP, 3.27 ERA
(41) 7-13, 202 IP, 5.21 ERA
(42) 13-7, 200 IP, 4.28 ERA

Randy Johnson-(41) 17-8, 226 IP, 3.79 ERA
(42) 17-11, 205 IP, 5.00 ERA

David Wells-(41) 12-8, 195 IP, 3.73 ERA
(42) 15-7, 184 IP, 4.45 ERA

Roger Clemens-(41) 18-4, 214 IP, 2.98 ERA
(42) 13-8, 211 IP, 1.87 ERA*

As you can see, Moyer fell off so far between 40 and 41, he had nowhere to go but up. Barring the Barry Bondsish stats Clemens put up at 42 (juicin'), you can see a slight decrease in IP, coupled with a slight increase in ERA can be expected from a 42 year old pitcher.

In summary, I'm not saying Glavine won't help the Braves, and I'm not saying Glavine will definitely pitch less innings less effectively. Just pointing out what other similar pitchers have experienced at Tom's age. We all know Tommy's record with injuries (or lack thereof), which makes him more likely to buck the trend of pitchers slowing down in their early forties.

KB21
10-08-2007, 04:40 PM
I think Glavine still has plenty of effectiveness in him. He's never been a big strike out pitcher, so I'm not concerned if he loses a little on his fastball due to age. Glavine only threw 50% fastballs this past season anyway. He still knows how to paint the corners and change his speed to throw of the timing of the hitter. I think Glavine can still have success at 42 because he is a pitcher, not a thrower.

BGarrett7
10-08-2007, 04:50 PM
Excellent read, Josh. I'll have some retorts and insight that I'll add a little later. A very good start off to the offseason articles, though.

Not only am I for Glavine coming back and finishing his career as a Brave, I'd also like to see Greg Maddux come back and give the trio their last ride. I know the latter won't happen, but I'd sure like to see it.I'm right there with ya. Hell, I'd go so far as to say it would be the perfect last ride for the Aces, Bobby and JS.

MPH
10-08-2007, 06:50 PM
I think it would be interesting to find out what historical precedents there are for pitchers Glavine's age. ... I will scrounge up this info and post it when i'm done.
With a little digging, you can find more of that here: http://www.baseball-reference.com/leaders/leaders_42_pitch.shtml

HaRdCoReBrAvEsFaN
10-09-2007, 03:31 AM
I think there are way many factors to determine if a pitcher is going to be good or not after a certain age...Everyone's body ages different, and injuries are completely random...If there was a way to figure some exact science out someone would be a very rich man...

Post #1000

charpotsss
10-10-2007, 03:05 AM
I think the key facts here are these, "In the 96 games started by someone other than Smoltz or Hudson, Braves starters averaged just 5.18 innings per start and had a combined 5.56 ERA. In 2007, Tom Glavine averaged 5.89 innings per start with a 4.45 ERA. Prior to the last three starts of the season, in which Glavine struggled mightily, he averaged 6.16 innings per start with a 3.88 ERA." I'd definitely throw 7-8 million at him. Get much above that though...seems like cheaper talent could do the job.

Love the sauna pic.

JCStone7
10-10-2007, 10:59 AM
Love the sauna pic.

http://i33.photobucket.com/albums/d80/madamsteph/Sports/glavinemadduxsauna.jpg

Get it done JS

HaRdCoReBrAvEsFaN
10-10-2007, 01:11 PM
Man it sure would be nice to have both of those guys back....I really hope SD picks up Mad Dog's option so we don't have to stress ourselves out wanting him back in ATL...As nice it would be for the memories and for the sakes of Shits and Giggles...We all know that the best move for this team is going and finding a younger arm and only bringing 1 of them back....

JCStone7
10-10-2007, 01:24 PM
Would be nice to see him retire as a Brave

HaRdCoReBrAvEsFaN
10-10-2007, 01:26 PM
How about....Glavine pitches this yr and retires...Maddux comes in 2009 and then retires with Smoltz...

JCStone7
10-10-2007, 01:32 PM
Smoltz will never retire!! eh I wish

http://i206.photobucket.com/albums/bb145/jcstone07/Braves/Tomahawk.gif

charpotsss
10-10-2007, 01:43 PM
Man it sure would be nice to have both of those guys back....I really hope SD picks up Mad Dog's option so we don't have to stress ourselves out wanting him back in ATL...As nice it would be for the memories and for the sakes of Shits and Giggles...We all know that the best move for this team is going and finding a younger arm and only bringing 1 of them back....

heh, i'd love to see what a rotation composed of smoltz, hudson, glavine, maddux, and james could do. i can wait another year to get a young guy if we could pull that off just for the "shits and giggles"

HaRdCoReBrAvEsFaN
10-10-2007, 01:44 PM
He's going to be the first human cloned... 8 will be made for us(5 Starters,1 Closer,2 Setup men)

HaRdCoReBrAvEsFaN
10-10-2007, 01:53 PM
This article thread's been great...I'm ready for Stone's now!!!

JCStone7
10-10-2007, 02:01 PM
This article thread's been great...I'm ready for Stone's now!!!

Will be up around 10 am tomorrow

HaRdCoReBrAvEsFaN
10-10-2007, 02:08 PM
sweet can't wait...i'm expecting good stuff stone!

JCStone7
10-10-2007, 02:22 PM
sweet can't wait...i'm expecting good stuff stone!

Do I ever disappoint?

HaRdCoReBrAvEsFaN
10-10-2007, 02:24 PM
wellllllllllll there was this one time...:beer:

JCStone7
10-10-2007, 02:25 PM
wellllllllllll there was this one time...:beer:

Oh well back on topic!

Glavine to help in Atlanta's resurrection to the NL East crown :bow:

HaRdCoReBrAvEsFaN
10-10-2007, 02:30 PM
NO Wrong....Resurrection to WS Champs:bow:

milbraves
10-10-2007, 02:36 PM
With a little digging, you can find more of that here: http://www.baseball-reference.com/leaders/leaders_42_pitch.shtml

Good find!

As nice it would be for the memories and for the sakes of Shits and Giggles...We all know that the best move for this team is going and finding a younger arm and only bringing 1 of them back....

I agree. I'm not into the idea of having three starters on the staff with a combined age of 124. Shits and Giggles don't win championships!!!!

JCStone7
10-10-2007, 03:23 PM
I agree. I'm not into the idea of having three starters on the staff with a combined age of 124. Shits and Giggles don't win championships!!!!

Indeed, need proof ~ see the Yankees

gobravez
10-23-2007, 12:44 PM
That's stupid, I don't think anyone besides the braves has a living chance to sign glavine. That cardinals reporter is just trying to give them hope, same for the nats.

Besides you heard what the boss man had to say last night C/M10.;)

JCStone7
10-23-2007, 02:16 PM
That's stupid, I don't think anyone besides the braves has a living chance to sign glavine. That cardinals reporter is just trying to give them hope, same for the nats.

Besides you heard what the boss man had to say last night C/M10.;)

This was a reply to some spam but it was stating that Glavine was considering signing with St. Louis. I had to remove the post due to the spam cuz I couldn't get rid of the links.

JayDonnelly10
10-23-2007, 04:12 PM
This was a reply to some spam but it was stating that Glavine was considering signing with St. Louis. I had to remove the post due to the spam cuz I couldn't get rid of the links.


Sorry I couldnt delete the links either....and it was weird how it copied


That's stupid, I don't think anyone besides the braves has a living chance to sign glavine. That cardinals reporter is just trying to give them hope, same for the nats.

Besides you heard what the boss man had to say last night C/M10.;)


Ohh I know! Yeah

McCarroll21
10-23-2007, 04:48 PM
I knew I read something about Glavine and the Cardinals, but I don't think that came from anything this year.

http://www.stltoday.com/stltoday/sports/columnists.nsf/jeffgordon/story/B976BF18BBA086478625737C005FA01B?OpenDocument
Albert Pujols battles on for La Russa, which is all you need to know. Jim Edmonds and Jason Isringhausen want to finish their careers in this program, which is also telling. Future Hall of Famer Tom Glavine has shown some interest in finishing his career here, too.That's all it said. That could have been said anytime he went through the city, that could have just been said as a passing comment to Edmonds or Rolen or any of the Cardinals brought in through trade and signed to a long-term deal, "yeah, the fans here are nuts, I'd have stayed here, too."

I just don't see how that can be taken as, "and the Cardinals have been in talks with Glavine."

He's a Brave or retired ... and if I had to make a guess... he's coming home.

Jizzlle1025
11-14-2007, 08:42 PM
itz only rite he does dat for his family himself & for all da braves fans he started his career der & atlanta made him a star so its only fair he finishes his final year der to be honest he should retire after diz year...

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