Braves catchers

[McCarroll21]

So, I was bored and have been sick so my sleep pattern is off. After sleeping a lot last night, I woke up and couldn't sleep during normal sleeping hours. I started pondering and I think I've discovered something that I want to share...<table class="tborder" border="0" cellpadding="6" cellspacing="1" width="100%"><tbody><tr><td colspan="13" class="tcat">Splits by Catcher</td></tr><tr><td class="thead" align="center">Split</td><td class="thead" align="center">Record</td><td class="thead" align="center">AB</td><td class="thead" align="center">R</td><td class="thead" align="center">H</td><td class="thead" align="center">2B</td><td class="thead" align="center">HR</td><td class="thead" align="center">BB</td><td class="thead" align="center">SO</td><td class="thead" align="center">BA</td><td class="thead" align="center">OBP</td><td class="thead" align="center">SLG</td><td class="thead" align="center">OPS</td></tr><tr><td bgcolor="#e3e3e3">B McCann</td><td align="center" bgcolor="#e3e3e3">21-8</td><td align="center" bgcolor="#e3e3e3">948</td><td align="center" bgcolor="#e3e3e3">101</td><td align="center" bgcolor="#e3e3e3">242</td><td align="center" bgcolor="#e3e3e3">46</td><td align="center" bgcolor="#e3e3e3">18</td><td align="center" bgcolor="#e3e3e3">96</td><td align="center" bgcolor="#e3e3e3">188</td><td align="center" bgcolor="#e3e3e3">.255</td><td align="center" bgcolor="#e3e3e3">.325</td><td align="center" bgcolor="#e3e3e3">.380</td><td align="center" bgcolor="#e3e3e3">.705</td></tr><tr><td bgcolor="#e3e3e3">B Pena</td><td align="center" bgcolor="#e3e3e3">0-4</td><td align="center" bgcolor="#e3e3e3">182</td><td align="center" bgcolor="#e3e3e3">40</td><td align="center" bgcolor="#e3e3e3">51</td><td align="center" bgcolor="#e3e3e3">8</td><td align="center" bgcolor="#e3e3e3">7</td><td align="center" bgcolor="#e3e3e3">40</td><td align="center" bgcolor="#e3e3e3">40</td><td align="center" bgcolor="#e3e3e3">.280</td><td align="center" bgcolor="#e3e3e3">.419</td><td align="center" bgcolor="#e3e3e3">.462</td><td align="center" bgcolor="#e3e3e3">.881</td></tr><tr><td bgcolor="#e3e3e3">J Saltalamacchia*</td><td align="center" bgcolor="#e3e3e3"> 3-1</td><td align="center" bgcolor="#e3e3e3">97</td><td align="center" bgcolor="#e3e3e3">9</td><td align="center" bgcolor="#e3e3e3">19</td><td align="center" bgcolor="#e3e3e3">4</td><td align="center" bgcolor="#e3e3e3">4</td><td align="center" bgcolor="#e3e3e3">6</td><td align="center" bgcolor="#e3e3e3">25</td><td align="center" bgcolor="#e3e3e3">.196</td><td align="center" bgcolor="#e3e3e3">.243</td><td align="center" bgcolor="#e3e3e3">.361</td><td align="center" bgcolor="#e3e3e3">.604</td></tr></tbody></table>* Not sure if Sunday's game has been included in the numbers, but the record was updated.Notice anything?

Perhaps the reason we've seen a hot streak is because Brayan Pena isn't catching right now.

Now, to take it a step farther, I give you the numbers from Kyle Davies broken down by stats with a particular catcher.<table class="tborder" border="0" cellpadding="6" cellspacing="1" width="100%"><tbody><tr><td colspan="13" class="tcat">Kyle Davies Splits by Catcher</td></tr><tr align="center"><td class="thead">Split</td><td class="thead">G</td><td class="thead">AB</td><td class="thead">R</td><td class="thead">H</td><td class="thead">2B</td><td class="thead">HR</td><td class="thead">BB</td><td class="thead">SO</td><td class="thead">BA</td><td class="thead">OBP</td><td class="thead">SLG</td><td class="thead">OPS</td></tr><tr><td bgcolor="#e3e3e3">B McCann</td><td align="center" bgcolor="#e3e3e3">3</td><td align="center" bgcolor="#e3e3e3">69</td><td align="center" bgcolor="#e3e3e3">6</td><td align="center" bgcolor="#e3e3e3">17</td><td align="center" bgcolor="#e3e3e3">4</td><td align="center" bgcolor="#e3e3e3">3</td><td align="center" bgcolor="#e3e3e3">7</td><td align="center" bgcolor="#e3e3e3">12</td><td align="center" bgcolor="#e3e3e3">.246</td><td align="center" bgcolor="#e3e3e3">.312</td><td align="center" bgcolor="#e3e3e3">.493</td><td align="center" bgcolor="#e3e3e3">.805</td></tr><tr><td bgcolor="#e3e3e3">B Pena</td><td align="center" bgcolor="#e3e3e3">2</td><td align="center" bgcolor="#e3e3e3">34</td><td align="center" bgcolor="#e3e3e3">9</td><td align="center" bgcolor="#e3e3e3">11</td><td align="center" bgcolor="#e3e3e3">1</td><td align="center" bgcolor="#e3e3e3">1</td><td align="center" bgcolor="#e3e3e3">11</td><td align="center" bgcolor="#e3e3e3">6</td><td align="center" bgcolor="#e3e3e3">.324</td><td align="center" bgcolor="#e3e3e3">.500</td><td align="center" bgcolor="#e3e3e3">.500</td><td align="center" bgcolor="#e3e3e3">1.000</td></tr><tr><td bgcolor="#e3e3e3">J Saltalamacchia</td><td align="center" bgcolor="#e3e3e3">1</td><td align="center" bgcolor="#e3e3e3">26</td><td align="center" bgcolor="#e3e3e3">4</td><td align="center" bgcolor="#e3e3e3">6</td><td align="center" bgcolor="#e3e3e3">1</td><td align="center" bgcolor="#e3e3e3">1</td><td align="center" bgcolor="#e3e3e3">2</td><td align="center" bgcolor="#e3e3e3">6</td><td align="center" bgcolor="#e3e3e3">.231</td><td align="center" bgcolor="#e3e3e3">.286</td><td align="center" bgcolor="#e3e3e3">.385</td><td align="center" bgcolor="#e3e3e3">.671</td></tr></tbody></table>Want to guess why Kyle has been pitching better? Maybe it's not so much Kyle's confidence as it is the piss poor game calling abilities of Brayan Pena.

[lmartin6]

You have normal sleeping hours?


Anyway, nice breakdowns. My wife asked me yesterday if I thought when Pena came back if they'd try to get rid of him to let Salty stay up...it just broke my heart to tell her no, b/c he needs consistent play at some level, and right now he isn't set to start playing first yet. Dammit they just need to find a way to get him in the line up.

[tnbravesgirly7]

Well dang you don't have to say Brayan has "piss poor abilities" as a catcher... That's rude.... I like Jarrod as much as the next Braves fan but I like Brayan to

[McCarroll21]

Rude or not, the numbers show that he does. That's the same reason why we had Todd Pratt last year instead of Pena. Pena can't call a game good enough to be a backup catcher in Atlanta.

[dogmanx23]

when the time comes for pena to come off the DL i hope Salty stays and pena goes down to AAA we really need to find a spot for salty to play everyday. From what ive seen so far is hes got a good eye at the plate has a nice swing to him and hardly strikes out. hopefully the braves try him out at first base because ive about had it with Wilson...

[McCarroll21]

Salty won't find a place to play if he's here as a backup catcher, which is the reason why he hasn't played any 1B yet. Supposedly they're working him at 1B, but who knows. If Salty is here as a backup, it's not worth keeping him here.

[dogmanx23]

no doubt i wanna see him play every single day i love this kid... it will probably take time for him to get adjusted to 1st im sure in 1 month or so he will be able to make the move and send thorman to LF with willie as the backup LF and 2nd baseman.

[DanielW4444]

The thing thats gonna keep Pena up is that he is a pretty good bat off the bench from both sides.

[F_man8326]

no doubt i wanna see him play every single day i love this kid... it will probably take time for him to get adjusted to 1st im sure in 1 month or so he will be able to make the move and send thorman to LF with willie as the backup LF and 2nd baseman.
Good idea -- let's banish Harris to the bench because he is hitting .471, has 4 stolen bases and has a .550 OBP while slugging .618. Yeah, he deserves to ride the pine.:rolleyes:

[GrandMasterB]

The thing thats gonna keep Pena up is that he is a pretty good bat off the bench from both sides.

The thing that will keep Pena up is the fact that Salty needs to get regular at bats. He won't be able to do that here until he learns how to play first base. Unless McCann decides to stick his hand out there and get catcher's interference again. :rolleyes:

[McCarroll21]

The thing thats gonna keep Pena up is that he is a pretty good bat off the bench from both sides.
If Salty is at 1B, Thorman is in LF. In that situation we have Diaz, Harris and Wilson on the bench. If Diaz or Harris are in LF, we still have Thorman and the other one on the bench. Pena's bat off the bench isn't doing much as a backup catcher. He's only been used when McCann had been pinch run for.

I'd rather have Corky Miller on the bench right now. He can at least call a game.

My fix:
Salty to 1B.
Thorman to LF.

New bench of...

Diaz - LF
Harris - 2B/3B/OF
Miller - C
Wilson - 1B/LF
Woodward - SS/3B

Oh well, that won't happen but I wanted to share these numbers.

[C-Dawg]

My fix:
Salty to 1B.
Thorman to LF.



I like this idea for a number of reasons, not the least of which is that since Booby insists on platooning Thor, at least he would be platooned with Diaz in left field instead of with the useless Wilson at 1B. And since Salty is a switcher, then presumably he wouldn't be platooned with Wilson at 1B at all, other than the occasional day off. Plus, I REALLY want a chance to see what the kid can do at this level before we off him to some other team.

EDIT: after further consideration, would we even need Miller/Pena on the team if we went with this scenario? I mean, if Salty is the 1Bman, couldn't he play catcher every 4th or 5th day to both give McCann a day off and keep himself sharp as a catcher. Plus, he could be the backup/emergency catcher even on days where he starts at 1B. This could give us the flexibility to have either another strong bat on the bench (rather than a light-hitting backup catcher) OR another pitcher.

[DanielW4444]

I like this idea for a number of reasons, not the least of which is that since Booby insists on platooning Thor, at least he would be platooned with Diaz in left field instead of with the useless Wilson at 1B. And since Salty is a switcher, then presumably he wouldn't be platooned with Wilson at 1B at all, other than the occasional day off. Plus, I REALLY want a chance to see what the kid can do at this level before we off him to some other team.

EDIT: after further consideration, would we even need Miller/Pena on the team if we went with this scenario? I mean, if Salty is the 1Bman, couldn't he play catcher every 4th or 5th day to both give McCann a day off and keep himself sharp as a catcher. Plus, he could be the backup/emergency catcher even on days where he starts at 1B. This could give us the flexibility to have either another strong bat on the bench (rather than a light-hitting backup catcher) OR another pitcher.


We would still need a catcher off the bench. Him playing 4 days of 1B and 1 day as catcher will hurt him defensively and he would get worn out doing that.

[Nasadega]

Good idea -- let's banish Harris to the bench because he is hitting .471, has 4 stolen bases and has a .550 OBP while slugging .618. Yeah, he deserves to ride the pine.:rolleyes:

We're already doing that with Diaz who has proven much more than Harris so far to deserve a fulltime LF job, but no one cares about him as usual :rolleyes:

[vnodnarb]

We would still need a catcher off the bench. Him playing 4 days of 1B and 1 day as catcher will hurt him defensively and he would get worn out doing that.


why would that wear him out? 1/5 days catching isnt exactly hard and 4/5 at 1st base is easy physically?

[McCarroll21]

after further consideration, would we even need Miller/Pena on the team if we went with this scenario? I mean, if Salty is the 1Bman, couldn't he play catcher every 4th or 5th day to both give McCann a day off and keep himself sharp as a catcher.I'm wasting 10K here, but if Salty is moved he's not going to be flip flopping anywhere. If he's converted, we're going to commit to converting him.

[DanielW4444]

I'm wasting 10K here, but if Salty is moved he's not going to be flip flopping anywhere. If he's converted, we're going to commit to converting him.



Exactly. We shouldnt teach him 1B or LF if he is still going to catch once every 5th day. Its all or nothing.

[C-Dawg]

I'm wasting 10K here, but if Salty is moved he's not going to be flip flopping anywhere. If he's converted, we're going to commit to converting him.

Wasn't it you that suggested moving him to first base for this year and then to left field next year? And now you're against flip flopping him? Good grief...you'd disagree with me if I said the sky was blue.

[Vuchato]

i'd like to see, if you're bored again McCarroll, how each's numbers correspond with who's pitching. If Pena perhaps catches some guys better than the rest, but maybe just does horrible with Davies.

I can't imagine numbers are that different for Smoltz or Hudson depending on the catchers they have.

[Vuchato]

why would that wear him out? 1/5 days catching isnt exactly hard and 4/5 at 1st base is easy physically?

especially considering he's CAUGHT 129 games as a catcher before, it'd probably be an easier workload.

[tnbravesgirly7]

Ahh good thing I went to school today, I don't feel like arguing Brayan and Jarrod I love them both :)

[McCarroll21]

Wasn't it you that suggested moving him to first base for this year and then to left field next year? And now you're against flip flopping him? Good grief...you'd disagree with me if I said the sky was blue.
How is that flip-flopping? I was telling you why it would be necessary to have another catcher on the roster if he is moved to 1B. The reason why we would still need a backup catcher on the roster if Salty is moved to 1B is because he would no longer be a catcher, he would be a first baseman. Meaning, we wouldn't have another catcher behind McCann.

[McCarroll21]

Figure this is the best place for this...
http://www.ajc.com/blogs/content/shared-blogs/ajc/braves/entries/2007/05/15/waiting_for_smo.html
Just sat down in the pressbox here at charming RFK Stadium after a sultry (as it hot) cab ride through the artery-clogged city, and now I’m watching Salty practice throws from behind the plate to Glenn Hubbard at second base. Strong arm on that kid, for sure….

Anyway, today’s blog. Where do we go. Let’s just dive in on a bunch of topics. And pardon any typos _ haven’t even read this over once. Will after I get back upstairs.

Oh, wait. First off, I should tell you that Salty has taken off the catcher’s gear and is now at first base, fielding ground balls hit by coach Brian Snitker and throwing to second base. Gotta say, he looks pretty good over there. Real good, actually….So, he got some work in behind the plate and then went to work at 1B. And if he's working on making the throw to second from 1B, I don't think it's just a see how you field this ground ball kind of thing.

Anyway, get excited ... the move could be coming soon [or it couldn't be, but I prefer to remain optimistic about keeping a top prospect].

[lmartin6]

Figure this is the best place for this...
http://www.ajc.com/blogs/content/shared-blogs/ajc/braves/entries/2007/05/15/waiting_for_smo.htmlJust sat down in the pressbox here at charming RFK Stadium after a sultry (as it hot) cab ride through the artery-clogged city, and now I’m watching Salty practice throws from behind the plate to Glenn Hubbard at second base. Strong arm on that kid, for sure….

Anyway, today’s blog. Where do we go. Let’s just dive in on a bunch of topics. And pardon any typos _ haven’t even read this over once. Will after I get back upstairs.

Oh, wait. First off, I should tell you that Salty has taken off the catcher’s gear and is now at first base, fielding ground balls hit by coach Brian Snitker and throwing to second base. Gotta say, he looks pretty good over there. Real good, actually….So, he got some work in behind the plate and then went to work at 1B. And if he's working on making the throw to second from 1B, I don't think it's just a see how you field this ground ball kind of thing.

Anyway, get excited ... the move could be coming soon [or it couldn't be, but I prefer to remain optimistic about keeping a top prospect].

Even if they don't immediately throw him out there, or even send him down once Pena returns, this is nothing but extremely exciting news. It's flat made my day. Obviously, they are more than just entertaining the idea of moving him to first at this point, and it has become something they realize could be a great possibility. Wow, I'm pretty darn thrilled about this.

[vnodnarb]

Even if they don't immediately throw him out there, or even send him down once Pena returns, this is nothing but extremely exciting news. It's flat made my day. Obviously, they are more than just entertaining the idea of moving him to first at this point, and it has become something they realize could be a great possibility. Wow, I'm pretty darn thrilled about this.

im with you all the way, lets hope he gets a chance over there as soon as possible

[HaRdCoReBrAvEsFaN]

i'd like to see, if you're bored again McCarroll, how each's numbers correspond with who's pitching. If Pena perhaps catches some guys better than the rest, but maybe just does horrible with Davies.

I can't imagine numbers are that different for Smoltz or Hudson depending on the catchers they have.


It's been shown before somewhere that Smoltz clearly pitches better with McCann behind the plate...

[JCStone7]

I hope they do move him to 1B, then we can hopefully find a way to ship Wilson somewhere

[vnodnarb]

I hope they do move him to 1B, then we can hopefully find a way to ship Wilson somewhere

give him a surfboard and next west coast trip just leave him out there

[JCStone7]

give him a surfboard and next west coast trip just leave him out there

I'll drink to that :beer:

[cklennon]

I know it would never happen, but I'd much rather see McCann at first than Salty. McCann would certainly take a longer learning curve but Salty is pretty unequivocally the better defensive catcher, and if we ever do need tradebait it's a lot better to have a plus-plus defensive catcher who rakes from both sides of the plate than a mediocre defensive first baseman with the same skillset...

Ahh, I can wish...

[hillanbottom]

Salty won't find a place to play if he's here as a backup catcher, which is the reason why he hasn't played any 1B yet. Supposedly they're working him at 1B, but who knows. If Salty is here as a backup, it's not worth keeping him here.
I agree.

also, these stats of yours make so much sense. it was all there in front of our faces, it didn't make since why Kyle was inconsistant with his early and recent starts ... he looked good but didn't follow thru as well as we all knew he should have been.

[hillanbottom]

Well dang you don't have to say Brayan has "piss poor abilities" as a catcher... That's rude.... I like Jarrod as much as the next Braves fan but I like Brayan to
stats have no particular preference from player to player ... if the numbers say crap then its going to be talked about as crap. not personal. its numbers.

[Jsh1284]

Yup ... the statistics are right their in front of our faces. There's no way to deny it. Unless you're Joe Morgan.

[hillanbottom]

Yup ... the statistics are right their in front of our faces. There's no way to deny it. Unless you're Joe Morgan.
:nod:

[Rynliquid]

I'm not sure what you guys are looking at, but there isn't a single stat I'm seeing that indicates that BP is a better or worse catcher than either McCann or Salty. Are those two better catchers? Yes, but there are about 25 different reasons for that and none of them are listed here.

You're looking at Davies' starts with BP THIS year, which also happen to be all of 2 starts. Have any of you tried to go find the splits from the times they partnered up in the minors? You would admittedly have a difficult time finding that, but simple logic would show that since Davies' numbers were much better in the minors, then his numbers with BP were likely good as well. What about his piss poor performance last year? I don't think BP caught him more than once last year. Are you going to tell me that single time was responsible for Davies' entire shitty season performance? And if so, have you smoked crack lately?

And where did this argument arrive from "oh he must have had trouble throwing strikes because he didn't like throwing to the catcher". Are you serious? When it boils down to it, the catcher is only there to prevent the pitcher from having to run to the backstop after every pitch to retrieve the ball. Is there a crackhead out there that seriously thinks the catcher has anything to do with the pitcher being able to throw strikes or not? I can imagine a conversation on the mound now:

McDowell: "What the hell is wrong Kyle, are you hurt, are your mechanics off, are you shaken?"
Davies: "No coach, its this assclown catcher to my right. I refuse to throw strikes until I get a better catcher."

And I don't understand what the team's offensive numbers when he's in the lineup have to do with anything. He's batting 7th or 8th when he's in and you would be hardpressed to find any correlation whatsoever that he actually has a profound effect on the offense when he's in the game.

[FalconPride]

What Rynliquid said.

[tnbravesgirly7]

stats have no particular preference from player to player ... if the numbers say crap then its going to be talked about as crap. not personal. its numbers.

Im not saying Brayan is the best catcher, Yeah he's my second favorite on the team and sure I'll take up for him but there are other players who have played like crap to... I can't choose between Brayan and Jarrod I love them both equally and I'd like to see Jarrod on the field at any position :nod:

[vnodnarb]

stats have no particular preference from player to player ... if the numbers say crap then its going to be talked about as crap. not personal. its numbers.


uhh oh, catfight

[McCarroll21]

Hmm... Shanks isn't surprised at the numbers.The kid has SEVERE problems calling a game and framing his pitches. Yes, he's improved. Yeah he can block pitches and can throw out runners. But there's just one problem: the pitchers have ALWAYS hated throwing to him. I heard it back in 2002 when he was here in Macon and it continues today. Again, he's gotten better. But now that he's in Atlanta no one wants to throw to him. That's why they are trying to figure out some way to keep Salty on this roster.Not a very good endorsement. Even if I do think Shanks is a tool, he still knows the team better than MOST of us ever will.

None of us are ignoring the inconsistency of Davies, but there's something to this.

[tnbravesgirly7]

Oh I love everyone :D

[tnbravesgirly7]

Hmm... Shanks isn't surprised at the numbers.The kid has SEVERE problems calling a game and framing his pitches. Yes, he's improved. Yeah he can block pitches and can throw out runners. But there's just one problem: the pitchers have ALWAYS hated throwing to him. I heard it back in 2002 when he was here in Macon and it continues today. Again, he's gotten better. But now that he's in Atlanta no one wants to throw to him. That's why they are trying to figure out some way to keep Salty on this roster.Not a very good endorsement. Even if I do think Shanks is a tool, he still knows the team better than MOST of us ever will.

None of us are ignoring the inconsistency of Davies, but there's something to this.

Aww, poor Brayan... I still love him though... That quote is about him though isn't it? :o

[McCarroll21]

Yeah, it's about Pena.

[tnbravesgirly7]

Well, LOL I dont know what to say... I didn't know pitchers felt that way about him

[FalconPride]

I wouldn't be convinced pitchers feel that way about him tnbravesgirly7. One, Bill Shanks likes to talk about stuff he knows nothing about (see the way he attacked Moneyball in his book). And two, you have to believe that Bobby Cox, Roger McDowell, and others would turn a blind eye to Pena's calling of a game and pitch-framing. Why else would they keep him as a backup? This is the same team that kept Todd Pratt all of last year and has went went Paul Bako, Fernando Lunar, and others as backups. It simply doesn't make sense for them to keep Pena around if his defensive problems were all that Shanks and the "numbers" want to make them out to be.