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BGarrett7
05-03-2007, 02:45 PM
Adam bomb? LaRoche, Pirates grasping for answers
Fans boo struggling first baseman in 7-1 loss to Cubs

Thursday, May 03, 2007
Peter Diana, Post-Gazette

Nate McLouth slides past the tag of Cubs catcher Michael Barrett in the first game yesterday at PNC Park.

By Dejan Kovacevic, Pittsburgh Post-Gazette

Adam LaRoche's chin dropped as he shook his head, a sight by now plenty familiar to patrons at PNC Park.

Only now, it was a half-hour after the game.

After another 0 for 4.

After getting booed loudly by the 21,765 on hand.

And, most painful, it appeared, after contributing nothing to the Pirates' 7-1 loss to the Chicago Cubs yesterday afternoon.

"I'm not seeing it," LaRoche said, his voice as quiet as his bat had been in grounding out twice, striking out and flying to center for the final out. "It's the ball. I'm just ... not ... seeing the ball."

There was much else for the Pirates to dislike about how they finished this 5-4 homestand. Early in the afternoon, they lost the completion of the game suspended from Tuesday, 8-6, on another poor outing by reliever John Wasdin. And, in the regularly scheduled game, staff ace Ian Snell was uncommonly wild and ineffective.

But it still came down to offense, as always with this team. And, when it comes to what is ailing that offense, unfair as it might seem given so many low averages, the logical place to point is LaRoche.

He was the one who batted .285 with 32 home runs and 90 RBIs for the Atlanta Braves last season, the one added to the middle of the Pirates' order with such high hopes.

Instead ...

His .132 average is the lowest in Major League Baseball among those with enough plate appearances to qualify for a batting title.
He has 12 hits, four more han the Pirates' pitchers. Only their cumulative average is .157, a little better.
He has had one multiple-hit game, none since April 7.
He has struck out 32 times, one fewer than major-league leader Adam Dunn of the Cincinnati Reds. Any of the few bright spots -- three home runs, 11 RBIs, a .280 average with runners in scoring position -- are becoming obliterated by the negatives. As is the concept that LaRoche always has been a slow starter.

It is no longer April anymore, and no one is shrugging it off anymore.

"I feel like I'm taking a step forward and two steps back," LaRoche said. "It's getting old. It's frustrating."

Even manager Jim Tracy, careful all season to turn reporters' questions about LaRoche into general answers about the offense, answered directly after this game when asked if LaRoche might benefit from sitting for a day.

"We could get to that point and end up talking about it," Tracy said, then quickly added: "I know this: If you do that, you can't leave him sitting there forever. He's not going to figure it out watching. Going to home plate and seeing pitches is the way."

Tracy also allowed that LaRoche disappointed on a day when he was bumped back up to fifth in the order -- ahead of sizzling Ryan Doumit -- after two games at seventh. Tracy's thinking: Show some confidence.

"We've tried a lot of different things," Tracy said. "You see some at-bats where you think he's close to completely coming out of it and, then, you see a fallback. It's a tough situation right now. But it goes without saying we need that bat. It's that simple."

Correcting the problem, it appears, will not be simple.

Tracy and hitting coach Jeff Manto have focused, in studying video, on LaRoche's ability to pick up the ball late in its path rather than at the pitcher's release point, as he seems to be doing now. That is a key for any hitter at any level, but it is particularly important for LaRoche in that he has a long swing and, when effective, waits to read the pitch to get it started.

If he reads incorrectly ...

As Tracy put it, "If you see the ball in the pitcher's hand and you're guessing, that's not going to work out."

"That's exactly what's happening right now," LaRoche said. "I'm trying to stay back on it, and I'm able to read it to the point where, OK, it's a slider or a changeup. But I'm not seeing it late enough to get the good part of the bat on it."

As a result, LaRoche has gotten a first-pitch strike 48 times, more than half his at-bats. He has dug an 0-2 hole 21 times.

Sometimes, that is because he seeks an extra pitch to read but, most often, he is fouling the pitch back or flat-out missing.

Bat speed?

That clearly is not an issue, as evidenced by the force with which balls still travel when he strikes them well.

"It's not my swing, and it's not my stance," LaRoche said. "I've tried some different things, more mentally than physically. But I'm not about to change what's made me successful before this."

One factor on the mental side, he acknowledged for the first time, was the pressure inherent with his arrival in Pittsburgh. He was one in a long list of sluggers in Atlanta but was widely seen as a potential savior for the Pirates.

Now, as could be heard again yesterday, he has become the No. 1 target for the fans' displeasure.

Asked if it is more difficult to play at home, LaRoche replied, "I think it is, and it shouldn't be. Obviously, they have every right to be upset. I'm not doing what I'm supposed to be doing, so I can't blame them. But that's something you've got to block out going to the plate. The only way to get their confidence back is to go out there and do the job."

What about his confidence?

"It's going to change eventually. I know what I'm capable of doing."

The offense as a whole was typically moribund -- poor approaches, lack of discipline, ugly swings -- against another ordinary starter, Chicago's Jason Marquis. The Pirates managed only Doumit's second-inning home run and three singles, resulting in the 15th time they have been held to three or fewer runs.

"It's hard to sit there and think of a way to win a game when you get one run and you only hit a few balls hard the entire day," Tracy said.

That greatly overshadowed Snell's first subpar outing. He gave up four runs over five innings, his lowlight coming in the fifth when he issued four walks, a wild pitch and a hit batsman -- but no hits -- to hand Chicago two runs and a 4-1 lead.

"I take the blame today," Snell said. "But I've forgotten about it already. You're allowed one bad outing. I had five good ones."

Snell is 2-2 despite a 2.31 ERA.

Post-Gazette.com (http://www.post-gazette.com/pg/07123/783054-63.stm)

McCarroll21
05-03-2007, 02:48 PM
I saw that. He blamed the ball. :D

The Pirates made a mistake when they thought he could be a cornerstone player. He's a supporting cast, not a lead actor.

oyhstah crachah
05-03-2007, 04:12 PM
Adam LaRoche's chin dropped as he shook his head
lol, how could anyone tell?

McCarroll21
05-03-2007, 04:21 PM
Heh. Just went over the the Pirates forum on MLB.com...

This post is a good one... :D
http://www.forums.mlb.com/n/pfx/forum.aspx?tsn=1&nav=messages&webtag=ml-pirates&tid=41701

Then you have people saying he's "poop." Others bagging on Littlefield for the trade ... "Mike Gonzalez lights out for Atlanta all year..11 ip..2 ER..1.59 ERA. Adam LaRoche makes us all long for the days of Trench Davis. Everything this guy touches turns into sewage for us and gold for everybody else."

There are some wanting to send him to AAA. :D

Maybe they'll try to ship him out and we can claim him on waivers. Not that he's that great, but I would think going back to 7th in the order would help him. Then we can trade him to the Mariners for Felix (they took Horacio for Soriano after all).

So much for their 40-50 HR guy that the BuccoBlog was predicting.

GrandMasterB
05-03-2007, 04:25 PM
Maybe he can start doing like Roger Clemens. Sit out for the first couple of months, and then sign with a team. :D He never starts producing until after the all-star break anyway.

CB1
05-03-2007, 05:07 PM
He needs Adam's Army to watch every game.

Adam's Army
05-03-2007, 06:50 PM
I saw that. He blamed the ball. :D

The Pirates made a mistake when they thought he could be a cornerstone player. He's a supporting cast, not a lead actor.

you couldnt be more wrong

McCarroll21
05-03-2007, 06:57 PM
I'm waiting on the proof. Hell yeah he's going to be good when hitting behind Chipper, Andruw McCann and Francoeur. Pitchers are ready to relax after they get through murderers row.

So, he's a slow starter, but do you have any clue what he's going to have to do from here on out to have the type of season they expected him to have?

LaRoche may be looking over his shoulder at this man (http://web.minorleaguebaseball.com/milb/stats/stats.jsp?n=Steven%2520Pearce&pos=1B&sid=milb&t=p_pbp&pid=456665) before long.

Hobbes
05-03-2007, 07:33 PM
The Pirates made a mistake when they thought he could be a cornerstone player. He's a supporting cast, not a lead actor.
I agree with this statement completely.

I was saying all offseason before the trade that I wasn't convinced Adam was really the player his second-half stats seemed to indicate, and many disagreed with me. I was fine with the trade, thinking that there was a good chance we sold high on him. Hey, I'm more than willing to eat crow if he turns it around, and I hope he does because he is a nice guy. But so far I've seen no evidence that he can be the go-to guy in the heart of a lineup.

C-Dawg
05-03-2007, 08:03 PM
LaRoche doesn't do himself any favors with his demeanor either. Nobody likes a sloth. Whether he can help it or not, whether it's fair or not, he just makes himself an easy target with his laissez-fare approach and attitude. An ounce of hustle is worth a pound of production. That's why we all loved Mark .235 lifetime hitter Lemke....it's also why I think we will all love Scott Thorman as well.

I was fine with the trade, thinking that there was a good chance we sold high on him.

Exactly! Even if he turns out to be the player they thought he would be, I think JS couldn't take the chance that it would turn out to be another Marcus Giles situation--or like the AJ situation will inevitably turn out-- where he eventually ended up walking and we get nothing in return.

grafe
05-03-2007, 08:32 PM
I think he'll be fine, I hardly think he'll be an elite player but I don't think it's too much to expect him to at least be a decent player for them

Adam's Army
05-03-2007, 09:23 PM
LaRoche doesn't do himself any favors with his demeanor either. Nobody likes a sloth. Whether he can help it or not, whether it's fair or not, he just makes himself an easy target with his laissez-fare approach and attitude. An ounce of hustle is worth a pound of production. That's why we all loved Mark .235 lifetime hitter Lemke....it's also why I think we will all love Scott Thorman as well.



Exactly! Even if he turns out to be the player they thought he would be, I think JS couldn't take the chance that it would turn out to be another Marcus Giles situation--or like the AJ situation will inevitably turn out-- where he eventually ended up walking and we get nothing in return.


Adam has plenty of hustle (yes i rmember the bluder last year but that doesnt prove anythign). Adam is just a laid back guy, that doesnt mean hes not giving his best on every play

KB 34
05-03-2007, 11:28 PM
Based on his numbers I'd say Laroche is so laid back that he takes naps during the games instead of fielding and hitting the ball.

Adam's Army
05-03-2007, 11:29 PM
i dont see how you can say hes a sucky player. he diddnt suck for us last year. 27 year olds dont just go from a good year like he had to being .100 hitters. anyone who thinks LaRoche is going to continue to hit .100 over the whole season is just dumb. he wont continue to suck

im honstly etting sick of how everyone on this site seems to have a vendetta agaist laroche. did this guy do something horrible to everyone that im not aware of? LaRoche will not continue to suck

McCarroll21
05-03-2007, 11:34 PM
Not so much a vendetta but the way people perceive him. The perception is that he will never be anything but a platoon player [with some success against lefties in spurts], and the best half of his career was put up in the second half of 2006. It's not that we hate him, we just don't expect him to match those numbers ever again ... not for a full season.

Right now, Thorman looks like a better player. He's hitting. He's hitting to left field instead of pulling everything. He hustles. He's made all the plays defensively.

jschafer5
05-03-2007, 11:41 PM
im honstly getting sick of how everyone on this site seems to have a vendetta agaist laroche. did this guy do something horrible to everyone that im not aware of? LaRoche will not continue to suck

I like LaRoche, and I agree w/ you that he won't continue to suck as the year goes on, but we got the better deal in that trade, so since it made the Brave a better overall team, I was happy with the trade....even though I'll kinda miss LaRoche.

Hobbes
05-03-2007, 11:44 PM
i dont see how you can say hes a sucky player. he diddnt suck for us last year. 27 year olds dont just go from a good year like he had to being .100 hitters. anyone who thinks LaRoche is going to continue to hit .100 over the whole season is just dumb. he wont continue to suck

im honstly etting sick of how everyone on this site seems to have a vendetta agaist laroche. did this guy do something horrible to everyone that im not aware of? LaRoche will not continue to suck
You have a particular affinity for LaRoche, so you see any negative comments as slams on your favorite player. It's just a matter of other folks here not liking him as much as you do. Many of us don't have strong enough feelings about LaRoche to have a vendetta against him.

McCarroll21
05-03-2007, 11:45 PM
Many of us don't have strong enough feelings about LaRoche to have a vendetta against him.Aint that the truth.

Adam's Army
05-03-2007, 11:46 PM
You have a particular affinity for LaRoche, so you see any negative comments as slams on your favorite player. It's just a matter of other folks here not liking him as much as you do. Many of us don't have strong enough feelings about LaRoche to have a vendetta against him.

many of you do have strong feeling that he sucks. many people are very quick to change their minds on players, I am not.

BGarrett7
05-03-2007, 11:52 PM
i dont see how you can say hes a sucky player. he diddnt suck for us last year.Yes, but he sucks now.

27 year olds dont just go from a good year like he had to being .100 hitters.Just in the past fifteen years, Bob Hamelin, John Hudek, Rick Loiselle, Ben Grieve, Marty Cordova, Warren Morris, Pat Listach, Troy Neel, Terrence Long, Mark Quinn, Mitch Meluskey, Jody Gerut and Billy Koch are all players who would disagree. Each peaked in their late 20's and proceeded to fade away into oblivion, and in the case of most were out of the game within a number of years.

My point? No, I don't think Adam will end up like the players I listed above, but it's hardly unprecedented for a player to have a fluke breakout season and then drop-off considerably.

anyone who thinks LaRoche is going to continue to hit .100 over the whole season is just dumb. he wont continue to suckYeah, he's sure to get it up above the Mendoza Line at some point. Maybe around the All-Star break.

im honstly etting sick of how everyone on this site seems to have a vendetta agaist laroche. did this guy do something horrible to everyone that im not aware of? LaRoche will not continue to suckYou know what I'm sick of? People who blindly let their own personal opinions towards a player stand in the way of seeing that something is obviously wrong with them. You don't know that Adam will turn things around this season, and you are refusing to let yourself see that as the strong possibility it is.

Listen, I've had players I have been very strong feelings for in the past -- Harris, DeRosa, Marquis, Drew, Thomas, Graffanino, Avery, and a slew of others -- and never have I allowed it to cause me to lose touch with reality. Those players have had their flaws and struggles just like everyone else. Willie is not an everyday player, as much as I want to see him out there as much as possible, if the Braves were to commit to it, it would likely end in a trainwreck just like it did with DeRosa. It crushed me to admit that the DeRosa 3B project was a total abomination, but I was able to do it because I don't let the trees get in the way of seeing the forest.

You, on the other hand, have a huge problem with this.

Guess what, the world will still go on, the sun will still rise, our government will not collapse upon itself simply because members of a message board are taking potshots at the horrible season that a player on the Pirates is having. Guess what, we were all ripping Langerhans apart -- well, most of BN at least -- and continue to do so for Redman. And they are still on the team!

Life goes on, pal. Get the hell over it.

many of you do have strong feeling that he sucks. many people are very quick to change their minds on players, I am not.Correction: I've always had a strong distaste in my mouth for LaRoche. Even when he was going through his hot streak last summer, I didn't like the guy.

lmartin6
05-03-2007, 11:54 PM
Many of us don't have strong enough feelings about LaRoche to have a vendetta against him.

You hit the nail on the head with that one.


And no, it isn't that everyone thinks he "sucks" He gets bashed on here so much because of how much hype he carried with him to Pittsburgh and how he was supposed to be the savior of that franchise, while those of us without and undying love for him can look at it logically and see that he isn't at all a franchise player. By no means does that mean he sucks. If thinking that a player sucks b/c he isn't a franchise guy, then there sure are a HELLUVA lot of sucky players out there. Due to the hype he carried with him, a lot of us find it quite humorous that he's proving us right. In no way do I believe he'll continue to hit this poorly all season, but you can't honestly believe that he's gonna turn it into something similar to last season. It just isn't going to happen. As Josh has pointed out, the bats he had in front of him last season batting in the 6 and 7 hole here in Atlanta are on a totally different level than those batting at the top of the Pirates line up, and that contributed greatly to his outburst

McCarroll21
05-03-2007, 11:57 PM
Yeah, so I don't want to quote any of it, and sure not all of it, but I love BGarrett's posts...

BGarrett7
05-03-2007, 11:58 PM
Yeah, so I don't want to quote any of it, and sure not all of it, but I love BGarrett's posts...:nod:

lmartin6
05-03-2007, 11:59 PM
Yeah, so I don't want to quote any of it, and sure not all of it, but I love BGarrett's posts...

yeah, Pordy's a swell guy. you think this is great, you should hear the fodder that leaves our mouths when our paths cross.

But yeah, his post was quite the work. I do believe he spent a minute or two on that one.

Chief Knockahoma
05-04-2007, 12:04 AM
Listen, I've had players I have been very strong feelings for in the past -- Harris, DeRosa, Marquis, Drew, Thomas, Graffanino, Avery, and a slew of others -- and never have I allowed it to cause me to lose touch with reality. Those players have had their flaws and struggles just like everyone else. Willie is not an everyday player, as much as I want to see him out there as much as possible, if the Braves were to commit to it, it would likely end in a trainwreck just like it did with DeRosa. It crushed me to admit that the DeRosa 3B project was a total abomination, but I was able to do it because I don't let the trees get in the way of seeing the forest.


exactly! i'm all about Diaz, but i understand that his one "breakout" season last year was probably just one year. i still spout my Diaz propaganda but i know that it's very possible - likely in fact - that Diaz had one year that was worth anything...at least as a starter. he's a fine bench player.

i've never really liked LaRoche but i don't hate him. i just never really cared for him.

BGarrett7
05-04-2007, 12:05 AM
he's a swell guy. you think this is great, you should hear the fodder that leaves our mouths when our paths cross. Better believe it. Good times, my friend. Good times.

But yeah, his post was quite the work. I do believe he spent a minute or two on that one.What can I say, I'm a little too riled up right now to actually go to bed like I should. We played with effin eight players tonight, and up until the fourth inning were only down 9-4 -- including an inning ending flyout to left from me which came one pitch after I was about four inches away from clearing the bases with a liner down the thirdbase line -- but that's when things got ugly and they started finding the obvious holes. You have no idea how much it pisses me off -- well, as well as you know me, I'm sure you actually do -- to see us play at that level, with those odds against us, for that long... When we can't even play that good at full freakin strength!

But this is a thread about Rochy, not my softball woes. :)

PS: Twas 1-3 on the night, first half average ends at .714 (15 for 21).

lmartin6
05-04-2007, 12:09 AM
Better believe it. Good times, my friend. Good times.

What can I say, I'm a little too riled up right now to actually go to bed like I should. We played with effin eight players tonight, and up until the fourth inning were only down 9-4 -- including an inning ending flyout to left from me which came one pitch after I was about four inches away from clearing the bases with a liner down the thirdbase line -- but that's when things got ugly and they started finding the obvious holes. You have no idea how much it pisses me off -- well, as well as you know me, I'm sure you actually do -- to see us play at that level, with those odds against us, for that long... When we can't even play that good at full freakin strength!

But this is a thread about Rochy, not my softball woes. :)

PS: Twas 1-3 on the night, first half average ends at .714 (15 for 21).

fortunately for you, being riled up about the result of a softball game keeping you late, is on tonight, and you don't have work or class tomorrow. Myself, after our horrendous underachievement monday night, didn't get to bed until well after 3, only to wake up at 6:15 and work another 11 hours. you lucky bastard

MSU Bulldog
05-04-2007, 12:09 AM
Maybe the Buc's should up Adam's meds. That would possibly speed his brain up enough to read pitches. :D

BGarrett7
05-04-2007, 12:14 AM
fortunately for you, being riled up about the result of a softball game keeping you late, is on tonight, and you don't have work or class tomorrow. Myself, after our horrendous underachievement monday night, didn't get to bed until well after 3, only to wake up at 6:15 and work another 11 hours. you lucky bastardhttp://www.speakingofsports.com/speakers/images/Corso.jpg
"Not so fast, my friend..."

Unfortunately, when finding out that I am clear on Saturday, I also found out I have to work the morning shift tomorrow. So just when I think I've finally got a Friday morning to sleep in, I get smacked right back down.

Damnit. :mad:

lmartin6
05-04-2007, 12:17 AM
Unfortunately, when finding out that I am clear on Saturday, I also found out I have to work the morning shift tomorrow. So just when I think I've finally got a Friday morning to sleep in, I get smacked right back down.

Damnit. :mad:


ok, yeah...well, that sucks. but look at the bright side of things. at least your job-site DOES have a bed and a tv

ATlinVA
05-04-2007, 12:36 AM
Awesome posts BGarrett. UP goes the rep.

Anyways, for the record, i think LaRoche sucks. Not because he's a terrible player, which he might be, but because he plays for the opposition. Anybody that hinders the Braves success sucks, a la Redman. Its harder to say Glavine sucks because he did so much for the braves. Laroche played good for half a year. Saying that, Glavine still sucks. If Laroche has a great year, i'll be the first person to say it and congratulate him. Then if i go to a Braves/Pirates game, i'll be the loudest person chanting ADAM SUCKS!

GrandMasterB
05-04-2007, 01:04 AM
Awesome posts BGarrett. UP goes the rep.

Anyways, for the record, i think LaRoche sucks. Not because he's a terrible player, which he might be, but because he plays for the opposition. Anybody that hinders the Braves success sucks, a la Redman. Its harder to say Glavine sucks because he did so much for the braves. Laroche played good for half a year. Saying that, Glavine still sucks. If Laroche has a great year, i'll be the first person to say it and congratulate him. Then if i go to a Braves/Pirates game, i'll be the loudest person chanting ADAM SUCKS!

I don't see where you're coming from with that. Is it just because he pitches for the Mets? I hardly think that a pitcher bound for the Hall of Fame can even be considered in the same paragraph as Redman or LaRoche. Just because he isn't on the Braves doesn't mean he sucks. He's one of the greatest pitchers of our generation and had many great years for us. So, even if he is a Met now, I still root for him.

MSU Bulldog
05-04-2007, 01:04 AM
Just in the past fifteen years, Bob Hamelin, John Hudek, Rick Loiselle, Ben Grieve, Marty Cordova, Warren Morris, Pat Listach, Troy Neel, Terrence Long, Mark Quinn, Mitch Meluskey, Jody Gerut and Billy Koch are all players who would disagree. Each peaked in their late 20's and proceeded to fade away into oblivion, and in the case of most were out of the game within a number of years.

A Pat Listach reference, holy shit!

MSU Bulldog
05-04-2007, 01:06 AM
You have to root for Glavine! (except when he pitches against the Braves of course)