What should we do in Iraq?

[lavell12]

I don't want this to turn into a Bush Bashing thread I want this thread to talk about actuall solutions.

I say we must stay b/c if we pull out now the terrorist have won and the region will have a state completely dominated by terrorist and the muslims will hate us more than if we fix the country b/c it would appear we came into their land to just kill with no purpose. But I do think there must be a change in strategy. What we are doing isn't working.

There are two options.
1) Send more troops and attempt to win the war with a military solution and get more aggressive agains the terrorist.

2) Try to do this politically with military backbone. Attempt to give the Suinns and the Shiits equal power. This might be impossible b/c they have already had elections and we can't just overthrow the majority of the population.

Whatever America decides to do we must confront these terrorist overseas and if we leave Iraq these terrorist will not only rule the middle east but they will be coming to America. The war on terrorism is a war and the Iraq war no matter what has happened in the past is part of the war on terror. America must succeded in Iraq in order to be successful in the war on terrorism and if we aren't successfull in Iraq the terrorist will be here in America killing men women and children.

[FalconPride]

I say we must stay b/c if we pull out now the terrorist have won and the region will have a state completely dominated by terrorist and the muslims will hate us more than if we fix the country b/c it would appear we came into their land to just kill with no purpose.
Wait, there was a real purpose? News to me.

[McCarroll21]

Wait, there was a real purpose? News to me.
My thoughts too. When all of this started, I was with the side saying we should be there. But as this continues and keeps dragging on and getting nowhere, I'm confused as to why we're even there anymore.

And this is kind of off-topic, but I'm going to say it anyway. I'm not anti-Bush, I wouldn't say I'm pro-Bush, but I'm not one of the bashers, but I'll be glad when this election is held and he is out of office. Not anything against him, but it's time to get some fresh blood into power.

[lavell12]

my main problem with the dems, is that their hatred of Bush gets in the way of them having any silutions. So what is the plan for them if they do take over congress, I will tell you what they will do is launch investigation after another against Bush and will do nothing to solve the conflict in Iraq.

We went into Iraq b/c in order to fight terrorism we must have a democratic nation in the Middle east in order to aspire the muslims in the region not to turn to terrorism but to give them hope. The issue of Saddam Hussein and his ties to WMDs and terrorism were also a major reason. Not to debate the issue but Saddam had used WMDs according to rest of the World not just Bush and Saddam did have connection with Al Qaeda that doesn't mean he had connection with 9.11. But the main reason Bush decided to invade Iraq was to get a democratic nation in the middle east to give hope to the region and to provide an example for other nations to follow and Afghanistan is to small of a country for this to be the example. Any reasonable thinking person must realize no matter their thoughts about the issue W does believe in his heart that this is the right mission and that we will prevail and I the thought of this war was brillence the execution of the war has been the problem. If the thought was so bad then there would have been much more decent before the war. I think that Bush needs a new strategy and sine Bush is going to keep this war going the democrats should swallow their pride and support the war to help our troops on the battle field. Calling for impeachment and other crazy stuff will not help our troops on the battle field but coming up with solutions in the war in Iraq and the war on the terrorism that aren't just anti-Bush could help win the war in Iraq and could help the troops. I don't think the dems are anti-troops but their hatred towards Bush blinds them to the fact that we have troops fighting a mission they believe to be correct. So even if you want to get out of Iraq, supporting this war helps are chances of victory and all Americans need to come together to help achieve victory, Politics are getting away of victory in the war in Iraq and the war on terrorism.

[FalconPride]

We went into Iraq for WMD's...then, found no evidence. Oh, but we were just so darn sure they had them and we're so dangerous that we could not convince the world that they did and they're also so dangerous. All of those snide remarks about the UN and then, the country invading couldn't back it up. It's pathetic to try to justify the war now.

Shouldn't the people of Iraq want their democractic nation? Please, they would rather have an Iran-like setup with a religious overhead and a voted on government to take care of the everyday stuff. I don't care if Bush thinks it's the right mission. I don't care if he thinks the mission has been accomplished. The guy is obviously one of the worst presidents the American people have ever suffered through. Seriously, the president position has gone down hill ever since JFK and has reached a new bottom.

Politics aren't getting in the way. The actual logistics and reality of the situation are. First, we don't want to be there. Solders don't want to be there. The reserves didn't sign up for this. Nothing the Democrats are saying hurts that. This is the same retarded thinking that Vietnam was lost at home. Much like T.O. on the sidelines, the solders are thinking, "why am I here?" Blaming the Dems gets away from the facts, but hey, Bush won an election when his campaign statement basically was "vote for the other guy and you might die." And the masses swallowed up like little sheep and voted for him; never wondering just what in the hell they were voting for. This war is unwinnable. We aren't going to kill terrorism off. You can't. Terrorism has been around since the Roman Empire. You aren't going to beat it by dropping a few bombs and invading the (wrong) country. What you can do is stop killing all the innocent people, let your police force do its job, and stop scaring everyone in your country with lines you can't back up. This isn't a fight for civilization. This is a fight without understanding the context or the culture of the people fighting it. We can either work with the culture or be the bully. We only know the latter.

After 9/11, we were told to live our regular lives. In some contexts we have, but now, we legalize torture, the Patriot Act is a joke, and answer to all of our problems is keeping two gay people from getting married.

Please. This government is an embarrassment to the history of this country and I'm sick of people defending their every move by blaming the Democrats, the exact thing they say the Democrats do.

[Chief Knockahoma]

We went into Iraq for WMD's...then, found no evidence. Oh, but we were just so darn sure they had them and we're so dangerous that we could not convince the world that they did and they're also so dangerous. All of those snide remarks about the UN and then, the country invading couldn't back it up. It's pathetic to try to justify the war now.

Shouldn't the people of Iraq want their democractic nation? Please, they would rather have an Iran-like setup with a religious overhead and a voted on government to take care of the everyday stuff. I don't care if Bush thinks it's the right mission. I don't care if he thinks the mission has been accomplished. The guy is obviously one of the worst presidents the American people have ever suffered through. Seriously, the president position has gone down hill ever since JFK and has reached a new bottom.

Politics aren't getting in the way. The actual logistics and reality of the situation are. First, we don't want to be there. Solders don't want to be there. The reserves didn't sign up for this. Nothing the Democrats are saying hurts that. This is the same retarded thinking that Vietnam was lost at home. Much like T.O. on the sidelines, the solders are thinking, "why am I here?" Blaming the Dems gets away from the facts, but hey, Bush won an election when his campaign statement basically was "vote for the other guy and you might die." And the masses swallowed up like little sheep and voted for him; never wondering just what in the hell they were voting for. This war is unwinnable. We aren't going to kill terrorism off. You can't. Terrorism has been around since the Roman Empire. You aren't going to beat it by dropping a few bombs and invading the (wrong) country. What you can do is stop killing all the innocent people, let your police force do its job, and stop scaring everyone in your country with lines you can't back up. This isn't a fight for civilization. This is a fight without understanding the context or the culture of the people fighting it. We can either work with the culture or be the bully. We only know the latter.

After 9/11, we were told to live our regular lives. In some contexts we have, but now, we legalize torture, the Patriot Act is a joke, and answer to all of our problems is keeping two gay people from getting married.

Please. This government is an embarrassment to the history of this country and I'm sick of people defending their every move by blaming the Democrats, the exact thing they say the Democrats do.

uh oh...something tells me all hell is about to break loose. it's an opinion that differs.

[Jsh1284]

I agree with every word you typed up there Falcon.

We already have Allys in the Middle East. Turkey, Pakistan, Saudi Arabia, Israel, the UAE and Egypt are all friendly with the U.S.

The reason why we went into Afghanistan was to seize that major oil pipeline. If you look at a map of our major Afghan bases, and then print out a scale map of the Afghan oil pipelines, you will see what I mean. All of our major bases were placed along these lines. Why? Because we spent too much money on that invasion to let our prescious Halliburton built pipeline be destroyed.

The United States MADE Saddam Hussein what he was. He was given huge amounts of money to arm his soldiers with the best equipment money could buy in the 80's. We actually designed targeting systems FOR his scud missiles to improve their accuracy. Hell, in Desert Storm, some of the soldiers our troops met on the ground fought our soldiers with the same rifle .. the M16

Saddam got a big head. We made him.. he built a large army... then he invaided Kuwait. Bad idea. They're the third richest oil producing nation in the world. We consume more oil than anyone in the world. Theres the connection.

But... this isnt about Desert Storm. This is about Iraq and Afghanistan. The simple answer is this: Iran

Its right there between the two countries we've already overthrown. Shit ... If America occupies THEM too, we'll have a major military presence in Kuwait, Iraq, Afghanistan and Iran. Thats roughly 40 percent of the world's crude oil supply. More if you count the oil coming into Afghanistan through the pipes.

All about the benjamins. Nuff Said.

[Jsh1284]

Oops... this was about a solution.... hmmm...

The Republicans could start with the solution by NOT trying to blame those EVIL liberals for everything. Take some responsibility for their MANY, MANY, MANY screwups over the last six years.

Hell, off topic, but that child molesting homosexual congressman ... yeah, in order to divert attention off of HIM, the Republicans are pointing their fingers at a Democratic congressman who made a little money on the side in a real estate deal. Sickening to compare the two.

Finger pointing is the name of their game. LIBERAL is bad. REPUBLICAN is good. Conservative ... thats the way to be. If you arent conservative, you hate America ... yeah ... that way of thinking has got to go. The American people need to come together and tell these weasels to cut the crap. Find a way to make Americans in America more secure HERE. Maybe destroy the terrorist orginizations in America first. Not Hezbollah or Al Quada. Maybe start with the Bloods and the Crips.

What most people don't understand is... well, Falcon is right. This war is UNWINNABLE. MANY of the basic 'terrorist' grunts cant even read. They just know what they have been taught from birth. America hates you, they're here, and they want to destroy Islam.

Okay now with that being said ... what happens to the Afghan boy when he finds out his father was shot to death by an American soldier when he comes home from school? Well, there's a good chance he'll become a terrorist too. The solution is to secure our homeland and leave.

[lavell12]

We went into Iraq for WMD's...then, found no evidence. Oh, but we were just so darn sure they had them and we're so dangerous that we could not convince the world that they did and they're also so dangerous. All of those snide remarks about the UN and then, the country invading couldn't back it up. It's pathetic to try to justify the war now.

Shouldn't the people of Iraq want their democractic nation? Please, they would rather have an Iran-like setup with a religious overhead and a voted on government to take care of the everyday stuff. I don't care if Bush thinks it's the right mission. I don't care if he thinks the mission has been accomplished. The guy is obviously one of the worst presidents the American people have ever suffered through. Seriously, the president position has gone down hill ever since JFK and has reached a new bottom.

Politics aren't getting in the way. The actual logistics and reality of the situation are. First, we don't want to be there. Solders don't want to be there. The reserves didn't sign up for this. Nothing the Democrats are saying hurts that. This is the same retarded thinking that Vietnam was lost at home. Much like T.O. on the sidelines, the solders are thinking, "why am I here?" Blaming the Dems gets away from the facts, but hey, Bush won an election when his campaign statement basically was "vote for the other guy and you might die." And the masses swallowed up like little sheep and voted for him; never wondering just what in the hell they were voting for. This war is unwinnable. We aren't going to kill terrorism off. You can't. Terrorism has been around since the Roman Empire. You aren't going to beat it by dropping a few bombs and invading the (wrong) country. What you can do is stop killing all the innocent people, let your police force do its job, and stop scaring everyone in your country with lines you can't back up. This isn't a fight for civilization. This is a fight without understanding the context or the culture of the people fighting it. We can either work with the culture or be the bully. We only know the latter.

After 9/11, we were told to live our regular lives. In some contexts we have, but now, we legalize torture, the Patriot Act is a joke, and answer to all of our problems is keeping two gay people from getting married.

Please. This government is an embarrassment to the history of this country and I'm sick of people defending their every move by blaming the Democrats, the exact thing they say the Democrats do.


Judgement on Bush's presidency must be reserved for several years b/c he is in the middle of a war not seen in US history and if we succeded in this war he will look like a great president while there is a good chance that he will appear as a bad pres. In my opinion he will be a top 15 President around 20 years from now. JIMMY CARTER is the worst President in the last 50 years.

And about the soldiers they overwhelmingly support President Bush just look at the 95% vote he got from them in 2004.

The patriotic act was supported overwhelmingly by republicans and democrats now that times are tough the dems are falling off that wagon. The patriotic act allows the gov't to do what it has been able to do to the mob and gangs in the past now just with terrorist. i wonder how you would stop terrorism without spying, tough interegation, and not to mention fighting them abroad. Thank God the liberals aren't in charge b/c they wouldn't allow any tough tactics becuase they wouldn't want to affend their friends at the ACLU (Anti-Christian Liberal Union)

Appeasment doesn't work

[FalconPride]

Judgement on Bush's presidency must be reserved for several years b/c he is in the middle of a war not seen in US history and if we succeded in this war he will look like a great president while there is a good chance that he will appear as a bad pres. In my opinion he will be a top 15 President around 20 years from now. JIMMY CARTER is the worst President in the last 50 years.

And about the soldiers they overwhelmingly support President Bush just look at the 95% vote he got from them in 2004.

The patriotic act was supported overwhelmingly by republicans and democrats now that times are tough the dems are falling off that wagon. The patriotic act allows the gov't to do what it has been able to do to the mob and gangs in the past now just with terrorist. i wonder how you would stop terrorism without spying, tough interegation, and not to mention fighting them abroad. Thank God the liberals aren't in charge b/c they wouldn't allow any tough tactics becuase they wouldn't want to affend their friends at the ACLU (Anti-Christian Liberal Union)

Appeasment doesn't work
Why? Because judging him in 15 years means maybe your guy got it right? That doesn't make any sense, but then again, none of what you wrote did make much sense. You love the guy so much I gotta wonder if you're sucking at his teat for your nutritional value every day.

Have you actually talked to solders? I live in a conservative area and we have plenty of solders. This just in, they support the president because of discipline, but not because of choice. I grew up around the military, something lost on this president. By the way, where did you get those stats on 2004? Seems more like a made-up version by talk radio.

Stop whining about the ACLU. Seriously, what is wrong about a group that tries to represent the constitutional rights that this government doesn't give a crap about? Oh, but conservatives like yourself whine about it because it's so liberal. Well, it should be. Studies have shown that the more educated a person gets, the more likely they will be progressive. To fight the fights the ACLU needs to (and thank God they do), you have to have a progressive mind. This administration could use a few.

The Patriot Act was a sham. Passed through Congress when everyone was afraid post 9/11. You can start a strawman argument with anyone else on the net, but not me. It's a sham. England didn't need a Patriot Act to fight terrorism and they somehow, someway stopped the plot a few months ago. Why? Because they actually fund their police force, not defund them to pay for some big bomb that won't scare terrorists, but create 8 more of them.

Appeasment doesn't work? Who the hell we're we appeasing?

[Jsh1284]

That kind of talk is dangerous?

Are you the Gestapo? You ... really sounded like the Gestapo just then, bud :-D. Plus the patriot act not only sounds like something those Germans would've beat their mothers for, it IS something they would've done such a thing for.

Btw ... One more thing on this subject. Russia .. of all countries .. voted down their own version of the 'patriot act.' Nearly unanimously I might add. The people said it wasnt the Democratic thing to do.

After all, they're not Communists.

[lavell12]

Im really tired of people trying to say that America should follow the lead of other countries I could really care less about France's opinion of President Bush. Europe is completely in horrible shape right now so lets no try to become like them. America > Europe

[FalconPride]

We're in horrible shape, too. Oh, no, we're not. God forbid we say anything about the Republican. After all, at least he's not getting a bj in the Oval Office. Cause we know THAT'S where we cross the line. Let's go ahead and take more freedoms away from the American people and be a corrupt nation.

I think you should be really tired of the idiotic Republicans running this country.

[FalconPride]

Listen, I'm not saying you can't argue that there were points for going into Iraq. I never supported it because I don't believe our government at anytime aside from Carter ever cared about human rights. Our history, especially during the Cold War, screams loudly to that.

But to argue that we should remain there in a military capacity? It simply doesn't past the test of logic. We should get out and now. It's not cut-and-run or whatever creative Republican talking point they want to refer to. It's simply the facts. Get out.

Now.

[oyhstah crachah]

Give the Kurds their own country and then let the Sunnis and Shi'ites either divide the rest up or if they want to be difficult, just let them blast the shit out of each other until both sides are dead... basically, leave...

[lavell12]

Give the Kurds their own country and then let the Sunnis and Shi'ites either divide the rest up or if they want to be difficult, just let them blast the shit out of each other until both sides are dead... basically, leave...

that would be possible prior to the elections, but I don't know if we can do that now but that is a realistic plan. We all must realize we are going to be there for years to come so the pulling out is just an opinion but not a realistic solution because it isn't going to happen.

[Jsh1284]

If we get a competent leader in 2008, it will. Or it should.

[FalconPride]

that would be possible prior to the elections, but I don't know if we can do that now but that is a realistic plan. We all must realize we are going to be there for years to come so the pulling out is just an opinion but not a realistic solution because it isn't going to happen.
Wait, I thought as soon as they stand up, we stand down. And considering the mission is accomplished, I'm sure that will be any day now.

[lavell12]

Wait, I thought as soon as they stand up, we stand down. And considering the mission is accomplished, I'm sure that will be any day now.

okay, the war isn't going great and you won't get me to say it is. President Bush has admitted things aren't going as expected but he still thinks we can win in Iraq and the thing is we MUST win in Iraq or we will suffer a huge blow in the war on terrorism. As I continue to say the idea of going to war in Iraq was not the problem it was the fact that we didn't expect the Shiit and Suini clash which we should have. But the fact is we have admitted mistakes and it is time to move on from whether or not we should have gone into Iraq and decide what to do from now and that was the purpose of this thread.

[lavell12]

If we get a competent leader in 2008, it will. Or it should.

changing Presidents won't just make the middle east a peaceful place and won't get rid of terrorism believe it or not Bush didn't cause terrorism

[FalconPride]

okay, the war isn't going great and you won't get me to say it is. President Bush has admitted things aren't going as expected but he still thinks we can win in Iraq and the thing is we MUST win in Iraq or we will suffer a huge blow in the war on terrorism. As I continue to say the idea of going to war in Iraq was not the problem it was the fact that we didn't expect the Shiit and Suini clash which we should have. But the fact is we have admitted mistakes and it is time to move on from whether or not we should have gone into Iraq and decide what to do from now and that was the purpose of this thread.
The answer has already been given. Get the hell out of Iraq. Now. We had no business going there, we don't understand the culture, and we're increasing terrorism by being there. And we have NO RIGHT to fight the battle over there so we don't fight it over here. You think that's going to endear ourselves to the Iraqi people or Arabs and Muslims in general? Please. Bush says "you're either with us or against us." Your average moderate Muslim looks at that and says, "well, I'm not with you." Are they now a terrorist? According to Bush's talking points, apparently.

And the fact is, this whole Iraq thing was a distraction TO the war on terrorism. We should have never taking the primary mission away from Afghistan. We should be doing everything we can to fight the fact that the Taliban has a new home. Northern Pakistan. You can get a custom-made AK in North Pakistan for dollars, jump the border, and kill American solders. That's the nature of the conflict. You never start another front in a war (especially a misguided front) when you are having problems winning the first front.

We need to get people in office who actually give a damn about understanding what we're fighting. Want to know why I know these guys don't? Iraq has been invaded more times than France. That area has been fought over for centuries. Anyone who knew the history would know we wouldn't be welcomed with flowers. Sure, they were glad to see Saddam go. He wasn't no prince. But they definitely are not happy to see us stay.

And we're never leaving under this administration and any Republican who keeps the Bush show going. They moved all of their Saudi bases to Iraq. Hell, Japan and Germany, for YEARS, hated us being in their countries and we had a lot more in common with them.

Accept this loss. It's already been lost. There are real issues in the world and distracting ourselves with this mess won't help matters.

[lavell12]

The answer has already been given. Get the hell out of Iraq. Now. We had no business going there, we don't understand the culture, and we're increasing terrorism by being there. And we have NO RIGHT to fight the battle over there so we don't fight it over here. You think that's going to endear ourselves to the Iraqi people or Arabs and Muslims in general? Please. Bush says "you're either with us or against us." Your average moderate Muslim looks at that and says, "well, I'm not with you." Are they now a terrorist? According to Bush's talking points, apparently.

And the fact is, this whole Iraq thing was a distraction TO the war on terrorism. We should have never taking the primary mission away from Afghistan. We should be doing everything we can to fight the fact that the Taliban has a new home. Northern Pakistan. You can get a custom-made AK in North Pakistan for dollars, jump the border, and kill American solders. That's the nature of the conflict. You never start another front in a war (especially a misguided front) when you are having problems winning the first front.

We need to get people in office who actually give a damn about understanding what we're fighting. Want to know why I know these guys don't? Iraq has been invaded more times than France. That area has been fought over for centuries. Anyone who knew the history would know we wouldn't be welcomed with flowers. Sure, they were glad to see Saddam go. He wasn't no prince. But they definitely are not happy to see us stay.

And we're never leaving under this administration and any Republican who keeps the Bush show going. They moved all of their Saudi bases to Iraq. Hell, Japan and Germany, for YEARS, hated us being in their countries and we had a lot more in common with them.

Accept this loss. It's already been lost. There are real issues in the world and distracting ourselves with this mess won't help matters.

Yo make a good argument and I do give you lots of credit b/c you aren't the one to go around making conspiracy theories about Bush and this war. Maybe this war was a mistake but you understand some of the rationale with out dismissing the threat of terrorism. Im glad we had this discussion b/c people like JSH who just use this topic to make clams about war for oil and stuff are totally out of touch.

[lavell12]

Maybe this commission headed by James Baker will work

[Jsh1284]

Im sure Falcon agrees.. every war in the history of mankind is based on greed. Money, Land, and Resources.

I don't see how this is being out of touch. I'm just looking through the huge piles of B.S. our regime and media want you to believe. I'm sorry, but I don't just believe everything that I read.

Also, you totally missed the point of my argument.

To summarize: If I am wrong .. and this war is in fact a battle for the survival of the American way ... we will NEVER win fighting it like this. The more we kill, the more they hate us. We kill one man, and two more will take his place. The best offense is a good defense . Friggin defend our homeland and get rid of the bloods, crips, and KKK over here. Seal up our borders. Watch who we let in the country.

Its simple, really. But unfortunately, the reason why our good president is that there's too much money to be made over there. Too much oil, too many no bid contracts that can be handed out to Halliburton and so on.

BTW .. I used to be a right wing fanatic too. Then I decided to turn off the Fox News, do my own research, and think for myself. It feels good when you dont just believe everything you hear ... or .. better yet, when you dont have to ignore the stuff you DONT want to hear.

Finished.

[FalconPride]

Well, since World War II (where you could make the same argument) and especially during the Cold War, if the United States could not benefit in some way, we stayed out of it. Look at Rwanda. Clinton, Bush, neither would have done a damn thing. Hell, look at Darfur. Want to know where terrorism comes from? Places like Darfur. You have to be pretty desperate to strap a bomb to yourself and blow up a bus full of kids. People aren't born evil (except if they have a medical condition). People become evil. Pissing off the middle east isn't going to help things.

Like it or not, but this war is making several people happy and rich. Do they actually not care that 3000 solders have died in Iraq and Afghanistan? Well, that's not their mindset. What they are thinking about is the all-mighty dollar. It's one of the sad side-effects of having a capitalist society. Not that communism is right or any other society is, but one of the major flaws of capitalism is the fact that human life gets beaten down on the priority scale in the face of money or land.

It's the nature of our country. It's why I never bought into this crap about caring about the Iraqi people. We don't and to even assume we do goes against our history and our actions. We went in there with the same basic attitude that we did with Native Americans. Sure, the words are different and more P.C. and we may not care too much about converting them to Christianity, but it's the same principle. We know better and we are going to teach you how to be more civilized.

Do we know better? I think so. I prefer our open Western system. Can we force our will onto others? Hell no. People act like the Iraqi people won something. Know why our democracy works (well, as much as it does)? Because we fought FOR it. France helped, but didn't outright win our independence. And until you fight to gain something, you aren't going to fight to keep it.

The facts are simple. This war against Iraq is unwinnable. I keep saying that and will continue to say it. It's not accepting defeat...it's understanding why we can't win. Bill Maher (I know you probably hate him) said it best. These people are going to hate us for 100 years and blame us for any problem that comes their way. We are screwed in Iraq. We can't stop this civil war and, though this administration hates it to be called that, what Iraq has IS a civil war. And it's brutal and disgusting and we can't do a damn thing about it. They have to want our democracy.

We never had a chance.