Bobby Cox

[GeorgiaSouthernBrave]

I do not understand how some of you can hate on Bobby. He is one of the greatest managers of all time. Please tell me why some of you ignoramuses would like to see Bob C go. Only argument's that are credible please. Also, take into consideration that he does not hit or pitch for our team.

[timmy]

I do not understand how some of you can hate on Bobby. He is one of the greatest managers of all time. Please tell me why some of you ignoramus's would like to see Bob C go. Only argument's that are credible please. Also, take into consideration that he does not hit or pitch for our team.

The results in this half of this decade speak for themselves...

[vnodnarb]

http://farm2.static.flickr.com/1220/1299935475_25e47e6b81.jpg?v=0

[Brave Henry]

Please tell me why some of you ignoramus's would like to see Bob C go.

Writing errors in sentences that are meant to call people idiots really undermine your purpose. It really hurts your credibility. I guess you shouldn't post in your own thread.

[timmy]

http://farm2.static.flickr.com/1220/1299935475_25e47e6b81.jpg?v=0

Repped! That's classic.

[timmy]

Writing errors in sentences that are meant to call people idiots really undermine your purpose. It really hurts your credibility. I guess you shouldn't post in your own thread.

Your dumb. :mad:

[McCarroll21]

I do not understand how some of you can hate on Bobby. He is one of the greatest managers of all time. Please tell me why some of you ignoramus's would like to see Bob C go. Only argument's that are credible please. Also, take into consideration that he does not hit or pitch for our team.
I feel like if you know that we want a change in manager, you've seen credible arguments because it's gotten you to listen. Why not give us a credible argument to keep him?

Tip: When searching for intelligent conversation, it helps to provide some intelligence on your end, as well.


http://farm2.static.flickr.com/1220/1299935475_25e47e6b81.jpg?v=0
It's his birthday. Leave him alone.

[GeorgiaSouthernBrave]

Once again, why do you call for Bobby to be fired? What manager do you think would've manufactured more wins over the past few seasons? Our team has been full of bums! Also, Brave Henry, since you're such a genius, thrash my credibility with a worthy answer Hemingway. Ongoing, I'll consider proofreading every post I make so I'm "credible".

[Brave Henry]

Once again, why do you call for Bobby to be fired? What manager do you think would've manufactured more wins over the past few seasons? Our team has been full of bums! Also, Brave Henry, since you're such a genius, thrash my credibility with a worthy answer Hemingway. Ongoing, I'll consider proofreading every post I make so I'm "credible".

I'm sorry I picked on your grammar. I should have picked on the fact that you haven't said one damn thing of substance in favor of Bobby Cox, and yet you ask for that same effort from everyone else. I just find the fact that you're calling out people for not being credible to be hilarious. It's amazingly ironic at this point.

[timmy]

Once again, why do you call for Bobby to be fired? What manager do you think would've manufactured more wins over the past few seasons? Our team has been full of bums! Also, Brave Henry, since you're such a genius, thrash my credibility with a worthy answer Hemingway. Ongoing, I'll consider proofreading every post I make so I'm "credible".

The quotation mark before the punctuation mark has to be the grammatical error that most bothers me. It just looks so hideous.

[GeorgiaSouthernBrave]

Here's my point. We won the World Series in 1995. Although we should have won a few more, we won one while many other franchises have not. Secondly, players come to Atlanta because they WANT to play for Bobby Cox. What's more, Bobby cannot hit, steal bases, or make fundamentally sound plays in the field. On the other hand, he can keep players confidence up and keep them comfortable while attempting to win games. All you brilliant minds out there, I would like some "credible" responses after you bashed my grammatical error.

[HTF]

Here's my point. We won the World Series in 1995. Although we should have won a few more, we won one while many other franchises have not. Secondly, players come to Atlanta because they WANT to play for Bobby Cox. What's more, Bobby cannot hit, steal bases, or make fundamentally sound plays in the field. On the other hand, he can keep players confidence up and keep them comfortable while attempting to win games. All you brilliant minds out there, I would like some "credible" responses after you bashed my grammatical error.
Players want to play for Bobby Cox because he is like the teacher is school that would let you do anything you wanted without repercussion.

[McCarroll21]

All I'm saying is that if you know people here want someone else as a manager, you've seen the arguments against him. I'm not going to go type everything out again.

Short version for you...


The game has passed him by. That's evident by the team's performance over past seasons.
He shouldn't be able to lose games in 2009 because he won in the 90s.
I'm not sure if he's ever adjust to a team to make that particular team work. When Bobby's been successful it's been because he had a team to be successful.

My biggest knock on Bobby is this...

His team starts year with a 7/10 rating, his team will end year with 7/10 or worse rating. Never has he taken a team with a 5/10 rating to a 7/10 rating or higher.

How much more credible do you need than being below .500 since the start of 2006? It's black and white. It's not about hating Bobby and what he has done, it's about the fact that we need a new page in this book because the page we're working with hasn't worked in a while.

[timmy]

His in-game decision-making is questionable at best...

And Jeff Francoeur is on his way to leading this team in PA for the 4th straight year. I think that pretty much ends any discussion.

[GeorgiaSouthernBrave]

Thank you. I like the response. On the contrary, I think that our team has just sucked ass lately. I do not think any other manager could have won more games in Atlanta the past few years. On another note, Braves fans got very spoiled with our run of division championships and success. Continuing, it is easy to be critical of the team now after watching such prestige the previous 15 years.

[lilsnatch07]

Thank you. I like the response. On the contrary, I think that our team has just sucked ass lately. I do not think any other manager could have won more games in Atlanta the past few years. On another note, Braves fans got very spoiled with our run of division championships and success. Continuing, it is easy to be critical of the team now after watching such prestige the previous 15 years.

Did you watch the Red Sox series? Jeff Bennett? Did you watch the Yankees game last night? Jeff Bennett again? Have you seen our lineups? Kelly Johnson & Jeff Francouer are still in it for what reason? These are all managerial decisions that show Bobby needs to retire ASAP.

[gobravez]

**Face Palm** It never ends with the Bobby apologists.

It's simple, Just look at the performance of the team during the last half-decade and ask yourself, "would any manager not named Bobby Cox be fired if his team preformed like this Braves team has for the last 5 seasons?" The answer is yes, they would be fired. And if it wasn't for his name we would already have a new manager. It amazes me at the number of fans who value the history of a name more than winning ball games.

[vnodnarb]

His bullpen management is atrocious. That's my biggest problem with him.

[BravesFanatic81]

I'm as much of a BC fan as the next guy for what he's done in the past. But, it's just that...the past. I personally (like many others I'd imagine) am tired of watching play .500 or worse ball over the past few years. I'm grateful to BC for what he's done but he's not doing it anymore. Give him another position with the team for all I care but I'd really like to see someone in there who can get to these players and get us back to winning again. Bobby, for whatever reasons, has lost his coaching magic that he once had and even though I like BC and am a fan of his I'll say it's time to move on as well.

[colebert]

All Braves fans want to see the team win rather than lose. That's indisputable. But how the teams goes about winning is what separates us.

For example, you can spend $300 million dollars and fill your team full of roided up Barry Bonds' and Roger Clemens' and win. Most everyone here would say "but that's not how I want to win." Fair point.

But there are Braves fans that would also say the same thing to a team that fires Bobby Cox like people here are proposing. (inb4 "but those fans are stupid.")

This isn't sabermetrics so I'm sure most of what I'm about to say will go over some of the well-respected contributers on this board, but sports for people who are not DIRECTLY involved in them is about our own personal *aesthetics*. Ask 1000 fans why they root for a particular team and you will get a 1000 answers. The one thing they all have in common is that their reasons are rooted in their own sentiments and tastes. I like the team colors, my parents were fans, I like how the organization is run, I like being able to support a team that beats the Mets, I like how we've had one manager forever and that he's universally respected, I like how we have Smoltz, Glavine and Maddux, I just like to support a winning team, the list goes on.

No one reason is intrinsically better than another. That's why this board is visited by Braves fans... to discuss the Braves & the game of baseball. Some Braves fans have reasons that seem completely inane to other Braves fans. That's because each fan orders their priorities for the team differently. No order is more wrong than another.

I understand why Bobby lovers say what they say and I certainly understand why Bobby-haters say what they say. This board has more haters than lovers right now and that's fine. But don't act like anyone who supports Bobby is retarded or stupid.

tl;dr you're all right and you're all wrong

edit: inb4 mccarroll drops the banhammer for disrespecting BN :cool:

[McCarroll21]

That's why this board is visited by Braves fans... to discuss the Braves & the game of baseball. Some Braves fans have reasons that seem completely inane to other Braves fans. That's because each fan orders their priorities for the team differently. No order is more wrong than another.
This is why I hate the 'true fan' label. Whether you've been a Braves fan for 30 years or you're just starting, you're a fan. Whether you follow every move made and analyze it with a fine tooth comb or just catch the team when you can on TV, you're a fan. No fan is any less of a fan than they want to be and they shouldn't be penalized for that.


I understand why Bobby lovers say what they say and I certainly understand why Bobby-haters say what they say. This board has more haters than lovers right now and that's fine. But don't act like anyone who supports Bobby is retarded or stupid.
Same. All I ask is that if you're on one side of any argument, you are able to stand up for your side of the argument. You don't have to throw stats out there that go on for days, just be able to support why you're on that side instead of saying, "if you don't agree with my side you're dumb."


edit: inb4 mccarroll drops the banhammer for disrespecting BN :cool:
You're dumb. :) lol

[colebert]

Same. All I ask is that if you're on one side of any argument, you are able to stand up for your side of the argument. You don't have to throw stats out there that go on for days, just be able to support why you're on that side instead of saying, "if you don't agree with my side you're dumb."

Obviously the OP is closer to being troll-bait than a paragon of the Pro-Bobby movement. I think we can all agree to that.

[Brave Henry]

I agree with you guys too. And as much as I relate to the Bobby hate, I also love the guy. I would put myself somewhere in the middle of the spectrum if I had to, but in reality it's not even that simple. Anyway, the reason I jumped all over GeorgiaSouthernBrave wasn't even remotely because he's standing up for BC, but because he called people ignoramuses in his first post. If you start that way, I don't see any reason to carry on a debate with you.

[C-Dawg]

The only real strength that Bobby has ever been noted for as an in-game mgr is personality mgmt and motivation. But this team looks like it can barely crawl out of bed in the morning. It's like the walking dead out there. And there is no chemistry or commradery among the players--it's more disjointed than I've ever seen. So Bobby can't even do the ONLY thing he ever did well anymore.

[gobravez]

Braves record since the last Bobby Cox extension:

82-105 (.439)

[McCarroll21]

The only real strength that Bobby has ever been noted for as an in-game mgr is personality mgmt and motivation. But this team looks like it can barely crawl out of bed in the morning. It's like the walking dead out there. And there is no chemistry or commradery among the players--it's more disjointed than I've ever seen. So Bobby can't even do the ONLY thing he ever did well anymore.
Bingo.

[Chop33]

His bullpen management is atrocious. That's my biggest problem with him.
this

[David Justice is Blind]

I asked this in another forum, but does anyone think the Braves success (or lack thereof) in recent years has anything to do with payroll?

This year we are currently 11th in MLB team payroll. I recall we were much higher than that when Ted owned the team.

I do think Bobby has a lost a step as Mgr., but I'm not sure how much better we'd be with someone else at this point.

[McCarroll21]

I asked this in another forum, but does anyone think the Braves success (or lack thereof) in recent years has anything to do with payroll?
I don't. I think the problems they're having this year is that the money wasn't spent correctly and the manager/staff isn't adjusting to the roster they have to work with.

[David Justice is Blind]

I don't. I think the problems they're having this year is that the money wasn't spent correctly and the manager/staff isn't adjusting to the roster they have to work with.

Can't disagree there. I was a little upset at some of the moves they made in the offseason. Would have been nice to take what we spent on one of those starting pitchers and put it towards an OF bat (other than GA). Especially with Hanson in the wings.

[broke]

We need a bat.......JFK and KJ in the lineup is killing us.

A real HR threat behind chipper and/or McCann will be 4X more effective than getting rid of Cox.

One thing I will say.....we are the best team in baseball with a losing record. Dont know if that says much other than we are underperforming. Without doing some research.......I feel we have lost alot of 1 run games this year. A reversal of those and we are standing good right now.

[SamtheBravesFan]

We need a bat.......JFK and KJ in the lineup is killing us.

A real HR threat behind chipper and/or McCann will be 4X more effective than getting rid of Cox.

One thing I will say.....we are the best team in baseball with a losing record. Dont know if that says much other than we are underperforming. Without doing some research.......I feel we have lost alot of 1 run games this year. A reversal of those and we are standing good right now.

Actually, it's 12-11 this year. It's not as horrendous as last year's one-run record. The Braves are also break-even with their Pythag record. They're performing as expected.

[ChipJones6610]

Okay, I really really respect and appricate what Bobby has done in the 90's and early 00's. This being said I think his time has come in which he needs to step down. He his a very loyal guy which at times is great, for instance I think it was good to try and let Schafer work out his problems for as long as he could, however the loyalty he shows what Bennett, Francouer, GA, is terrible, I mean they kill rallies all the time. Also, his in game mgmt isn't very good. Also I belive he is way too passive in his approach, never stealing, or hitting and running, never putting any pressure on the other team to make the perfect play.

[TheCobra]

lets just face facts.....the game has passed him by. He's still playing like we're in the 90's. Thinking that we're waiting for that three run homer. The game has changed dramatically from the 90's when the braves were good. Playing small ball and stealing bases is pretty much the new era right now, and bobby cox doesnt do either of them. I appreciate everything that Bobby has done for the braves but it is his time to go......glad his contract ends this year and to me hopefully he doesnt come back.

[C-Dawg]

One thing I will say.....we are the best team in baseball with a losing record. Dont know if that says much other than we are underperforming.

I think this statement says it all. For whatever reason, Bobby is simply not getting enough out of this team.

[BravesFanatic81]

One thing I will say.....we are the best team in baseball with a losing record. Dont know if that says much other than we are underperforming.

X2 :thumbsup:

[00Benj]

I agree with the others on this site who have said the game has simply passed him by.

[Preacher]

I don't know guys, I just don't know. I will always stand by my stance that coaches and managers in baseball are the most useless in all of sports. It's such an individual sport with lineups and rotations that are basically set - I just don't think a manager makes that big of a difference.

Does anyone really think our record changes much if Bobby were replaced by a different skipper? Would that help Kelly Johnson make simple defensive plays, or Jeff Francoeur hit home runs, or help Anderson play some defense, or the list could obviously go on.

I understand as the manager some of the blame should be on his shoulders, I'm just not sure if the manager really makes that large of a difference. Give the guy talented players and he'll win.

BTW: I'm with the majority of the board with his bullpen management - he overuses guys and I could never figure out his love for Bennett. BUT give the guy credit for going away from the "CLOSER" and using Gonzo/Soriano depending on matchups - it's a good move and one he doesn't get a whole lot of credit for.

[abyss616]

Until Wren gives him a better option than Francoeur, Bobby will continue to play him there. And to say he's only a good manager when he has good players... duh! Joe Torre had a lifetime record of under .500 until he joined the Yankees. When he got good players, suddenly he became a great manager.

[timmy]

I don't know guys, I just don't know. I will always stand by my stance that coaches and managers in baseball are the most useless in all of sports. It's such an individual sport with lineups and rotations that are basically set - I just don't think a manager makes that big of a difference.

Does anyone really think our record changes much if Bobby were replaced by a different skipper? Would that help Kelly Johnson make simple defensive plays, or Jeff Francoeur hit home runs, or help Anderson play some defense, or the list could obviously go on.

I understand as the manager some of the blame should be on his shoulders, I'm just not sure if the manager really makes that large of a difference. Give the guy talented players and he'll win.

BTW: I'm with the majority of the board with his bullpen management - he overuses guys and I could never figure out his love for Bennett. BUT give the guy credit for going away from the "CLOSER" and using Gonzo/Soriano depending on matchups - it's a good move and one he doesn't get a whole lot of credit for.

Agree with most everything said here. I think he's partially to blame for Francoeur though, because he insists on trotting him out there every night. And it seems like he's shown a double-standard with certain players. We certainly wouldn't be good with a different manager, but we very well could be better. It's when he makes a completely indefensible bullpen call that leads to us pissing a game away that I really get pissed.

I hardly consider myself a Cox-supporter, but I will say that it wouldn't be advantageous for the team to show him the door. Because of his reputation around the game, it would be better for him to leave on his own terms. Hopefully, that happens soon.

It's ridiculous to think we'd be a contender if we had someone else at the helm. Even if that someone else was the best manager in the game, we'd still probably be a below .500 club.

I do think some things need to get shaken up with our coaching staff, though. But at the end of the day talent wins over intangibles.

[FanSince83]

I asked this in another forum, but does anyone think the Braves success (or lack thereof) in recent years has anything to do with payroll?

This year we are currently 11th in MLB team payroll. I recall we were much higher than that when Ted owned the team.

I do think Bobby has a lost a step as Mgr., but I'm not sure how much better we'd be with someone else at this point.

In 1995 we were 4th in team salaries at $47M, behind Yankees, Orioles, & Reds. This year we are 11th at $96M. I think team salaries has a little bit to do with performance, if all goes well, but that hardly happens. Excluding the Yankees in Red Sox, out of the 10 teams that have been to the last 5 World Series, none of them have had payrolls in the top 10 of the majors. Three of them have been bottom 5.

Point is, the management of the team, from the front office to the dugout managers, has a lot of influence on what happens on the field and how the team is run. Payroll strategy is a huge part of the game too. To win with a low payroll, such as the Rays last year, is a huge atta-boy to management.

Whether or not Bobby needs to go is neither here nor there to me. The Braves are still in rebuilding mode after winning for 14 years straight. I'll take a few down years after that run while we re-build to get back to the top. It's coming...shouldn't be more than another year or two.


http://www.cbssports.com/mlb/salaries

[ChipChipHooray]

Whether or not Bobby needs to go is neither here nor there to me. The Braves are still in rebuilding mode after winning for 14 years straight. I'll take a few down years after that run while we re-build to get back to the top. It's coming...shouldn't be more than another year or two.


http://www.cbssports.com/mlb/salaries

The problem is that we have not decided yet whether we are in rebuilding mode or not. I think most people here would not have a problem during these down years if we were actually in rebuilding mode. I think they are in betweeen, spending money on a big free agent like Lowe and KK, and thinking guys like Anderson will address power bat issues and trading away big time peices in the farm system to get a guy like Tex. I would have no problem losing most of our games this year, if we are trying to rebuild.

[FanSince83]

The problem is that we have not decided yet whether we are in rebuilding mode or not. I think most people here would not have a problem during these down years if we were actually in rebuilding mode. I think they are in betweeen, spending money on a big free agent like Lowe and KK, and thinking guys like Anderson will address power bat issues and trading away big time peices in the farm system to get a guy like Tex. I would have no problem losing most of our games this year, if we are trying to rebuild.

To make myself feel better, I decided we are in rebuilding mode.

:p

I agree though, it's like we are stuck between. I don't think we're far off. If Jason Heyward and Cody Johnson can develop quickly (in the next year or so) then we will be in great shape in the outfield. Nate McLouth will be a great piece of leadership for those guys. Jordan Schafer will have to decide how he belongs in that mix. I think the outfield is our biggest area of concern for now.

[HTF]

I agree though, it's like we are stuck between. I don't think we're far off. If Jason Heyward and Cody Johnson can develop quickly (in the next year or so) then we will be in great shape in the outfield. Nate McLouth will be a great piece of leadership for those guys. Jordan Schafer will have to decide how he belongs in that mix. I think the outfield is our biggest area of concern for now.
Braves fans are setting themselves up for huge disappointment if they are banking on Cody Johnson becoming an impact Major League player. But that is just my opinion.

[Preacher]

Braves fans are setting themselves up for huge disappointment if they are banking on Cody Johnson becoming an impact Major League player. But that is just my opinion.

I would reluctantly second that notion - althougth he's made some progress this year.

[josephw000]

Braves fans are setting themselves up for huge disappointment if they are banking on Cody Johnson becoming an impact Major League player. But that is just my opinion.

Who knows what a few years on the farm will do man...you can only wait and see. All I know is he hits em high and far...

[BF91]

Who knows what a few years on the farm will do man...you can only wait and see. All I know is he hits em high and far...

And that's usually the only way he hits 'em. He's going to need better contact skills and plate dicipline if he ever wants to succeed past High-A ball. I'm not saying that he won't become an impact player, but he's still very much a project.

[SamtheBravesFan]

And that's usually the only way he hits 'em. He's going to need better contact skills and plate dicipline if he ever wants to succeed past High-A ball. I'm not saying that he won't become an impact player, but he's still very much a project.

This. If Johnson can discover some more contact or even hold his own in Class AA, he could be a decent major league player.

[timmy]

CoJo has 14 walks to 18 Ks for the month, cut him some slack.

The power is down, but he just cut his Ks in half from the previous month, while setting a career high for walks in a month. All this guy has done is consistently make strides throughout his career. I still think he's a bit of a longshot, but when he surprised me and came right into Myrtle and hit, he stock went way up for me. He's going to break the team HR record in the next couple weeks, and he's leading the whole league in OPS.

How he does next year in Mississippi will probably tell us a lot more, but even if it takes him three more years in the minors he can still make the bigs at 24. And with his power, he'd be worth the wait.

[Preacher]

CoJo has 14 walks to 18 Ks for the month, cut him some slack.

The power is down, but he just cut his Ks in half from the previous month, while setting a career high for walks in a month. All this guy has done is consistently make strides throughout his career. I still think he's a bit of a longshot, but when he surprised me and came right into Myrtle and hit, he stock went way up for me. He's going to break the team HR record in the next couple weeks, and he's leading the whole league in OPS.

How he does next year in Mississippi will probably tell us a lot more, but even if it takes him three more years in the minors he can still make the bigs at 24. And with his power, he'd be worth the wait.

Blah! OPS is overrated, I only use proven old-school stats like RBI's, AVG and strikeouts to judge players.