What lies behind the curtain: Jeff Francoeur

[McCarroll21]

What lies behind the curtain: Jeff Francoeur
By: Josh McCarroll (http://www.braves-nation.com/forums/member.php?u=1) | Braves-Nation.com

While a few get caught up in the "Golden Boy" image that Jeff Francoeur took on during his rookie season, there are a few out there that can see past this facade and see the real Jeff Francoeur. During this article, I'm going to take a look at what Jeff Francoeur is, not what fans want him to be.


What is Jeff Francoeur?
Jeff Francoeur is an average ball player. Nothing more, nothing less.

Why is an average ball player so bad? It's not when that's how he is interpreted, but right now, Jeff is being interpreted as a superstar, when he's obviously not.

For those who feel he's headed to stardom, did you know that Jeff Francoeur owns the same OPS+ for his career as our centerfielder? Both players have a career OPS+ of 100. What is the significance of 100? It's average.

Some other 100 OPS+ guys:Jay Gibbons - 101
Scott Hatteberg - 101
Mike Lieberthal - 101
Brian Roberts - 101
Randy Winn - 101
Rich Aurilia - 100
Jason Kendall - 100
Mark Kotsay - 100
Eric Byrnes - 99
Jose Guillen - 99
Jacque Jones - 99
Paul Lo Duca - 99
Mark Loretta - 99
Doug Mientkiewicz - 99
Placido Polanco - 99What do all of those players have in common? They're average baseball players, especially when looking at them as a middle of the order guy.

So, why is it that Jeff Francoeur gets treated like he's breaking into stardom when his career has leveled off as that of average? Again, what's wrong with having an average ball player? Nothing is wrong when he is seen as that. It gets out of hand when people start making him something that he's not. That doesn't include just fans; it starts with Frank Wren and Bobby Cox.


Is Francoeur a platoon player?
What? Are you serious? You're going to ask if Jeff Francoeur is a platoon player? Well, what makes a platoon player?

I say a platoon player is a player that has proven he can only be productive against one type of pitching, in Francoeur's case, left handed pitching.

Over his career, Francoeur has the following platoon splits:vs. left handed pitching - .318/.365/.545 - .907 OPS
vs. right handed pitching - .264/.300/.430 - .729 OPSOuch.

For his career, Francoeur has an isoSLG of .227 against lefties and that dips all the way to a .166 against right handed pitching.

Going deeper, Francoeur strikes out in 21.06% of his at-bats against right handed pitching, versus that of 16.63% of his at-bats against left handed pitching.

That's okay, he's young and going to get better, right?

<table border="0" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="0" width="200"><tbody><tr><td align="center">
</td><td align="center">vs. LHP</td><td align="center">vs. RHP</td></tr><tr><td align="center">2005</td><td align="center">.424</td><td align="center">.189</td></tr><tr><td align="center">2006</td><td align="center">.226</td><td align="center">.176</td></tr><tr><td align="center">2007</td><td align="center">.169</td><td align="center">.143</td></tr></tbody></table>
Uh oh. We're going in the wrong direction, Jeff. Now let's look at those strikeout percentages and see how they're fairing with more seasoning.

<table border="0" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="0" width="200"><tbody><tr><td align="center">
</td><td align="center">vs. LHP</td><td align="center">vs. RHP</td></tr><tr><td align="center">2005</td><td align="center">22.73%</td><td align="center">22.51%</td></tr><tr><td align="center">2006</td><td align="center">17.26%</td><td align="center">21.33%</td></tr><tr><td align="center">2007</td><td align="center">15.87%</td><td align="center">22.12%</td></tr></tbody></table>
Jeff, you're still not improving. His strikeouts may be going down against left handed pitching, but they're hovering right around the same when batting against right handed pitching.

Now that you've seen the numbers, without going into too much depth, why is this guy still playing against right handed pitchers? If he has to play, why is he still batting in the middle of the order against them?

Even further, why is Francoeur still playing the roll of the Golden Boy in the eyes of nearly every Braves fan when he's nothing more than an average baseball player, though he would make a great platoon partner for someone...

Hello Greg Norton!

[McCarroll21]

Don't like it, write a counter article. :)

[MSU Bulldog]

This is not going to make the Francoeur Fan Club happy. Maybe this is why the Braves have stood firm on the extension and didn't even offer this year. Perhaps his Golden Boy status has gone to his own head. You can't beat good marketing and his personality perpetuates that. Don't get me wrong, I like Francoeur. I think he does a lot of things the right way, on the field and off. The fact that he is a great guy is raising his standard of play in the minds of many. What if he had the attitude of Barry Bonds?

[JCStone7]

Hater!

I'm not going to write a counter article cuz me arguing with stats is like Superman battling with kryptonite. But I will give you my reasoning.

It's not Jeff's fault he was cast that image before he even buttoned up the Atlanta jersey, I personally never said or expected him to be the next coming of Chipper Jones when at the dish with a shelaylee in his hands.

Is he an average player? Yes, but certainly not bad enough to be forced in a platoon. If you honestly want Greg Norton platooning with Francoeur than I would say your talking out of your pure disdain for Francoeur. I personally like Francoeur, cuz he wants to be on the field and help his team and not his wallet (hello, Andruw). When you go to a Braves game and see who the last player on the field signing autographs and interacting with fans? (if any player is at all) It's Jeff Francoeur.

[MSU Bulldog]

When you go to a Braves game and see who the last player on the field signing autographs and interacting with fans? (if any player is at all) It's Jeff Francoeur.

That's what makes me like him, he's such a personable guy.

[MSU Bulldog]

Hello Greg Norton!

Did you make that statement to draw people out, or do you truly believe he would be a better option?

[chip&smoltz95]

Hater!

I'm not going to write a counter article cuz me arguing with stats is like Superman battling with kryptonite. But I will give you my reasoning.

It's not Jeff's fault he was cast that image before he even buttoned up the Atlanta jersey, I personally never said or expected him to be the next coming of Chipper Jones when at the dish with a shelaylee in his hands.

Is he an average player? Yes, but certainly not bad enough to be forced in a platoon. If you honestly want Greg Norton platooning with Francoeur than I would say your talking out of your pure disdain for Francoeur. I personally like Francoeur, cuz he wants to be on the field and help his team and not his wallet (hello, Andruw). When you go to a Braves game and see who the last player on the field signing autographs and interacting with fans? (if any player is at all) It's Jeff Francoeur.


I am not a stat man either, but even if frenchy is average I think he has to be in there. His arm only has saved games, even if his bat is not. I think that's part of the reason people were "patient" with a.jones, because his defensive was great. Also, frenchy is feared by pitchers I think because of his potential to get hot (i.e second half of last year)

[PeytonAllen]

You want to platoon Jeff with Greg Norton? lol Right.

Frenchie is too importantly defensively to be taken out. That more than any other reason is why Bobby pencils him in 162 times a year. Do I think he's the greatest right fielder ever? No, but he can save a run when he has a chance to.

He looked like a world beater those first 70 games. He's got a great personality, and it was easy for fans to fall in love...anoint him as the next Murphy. Just as stat monkeys look at Kelly Johnson and want to believe he's better than he is right now.

I think when you factor both sides of the ball he's better than an average player, but no he's not a superstar. He may never be. At 24, I still think Jeff has more room to go, but this is a big year for him to show everyone what he's going to be.

The reality is..he may just be a good player who flirts with 25 home runs every year will hit around .280, etc. It's too early in his development to say what he's going to be. But if you want to yank him for Norton...go for it. lol

[PeytonAllen]

Also, in '06 he hit .240 against righties. In '07 .281. And had a better 0BS.

So to suggest he's getting worse facing righties (clearly his weaker side) is laughable.

[PeytonAllen]

I guess I don't understand how you could champion David Dejesus in the offseason to be in our OF, because he's a cheap option who plays defense, but hate Frenchie, who's cheap, plays great defense and is better with a bat.

Did he steal your lunch money as a kid?

I understand the hype factor. It's hard for me to watch tv shows after they're hits. The hype turns me off. I hate that Roger Federer wins a match and is proclaimed the greatest of all time. We're in an era where everything we see is better than what came before, no questions asked. So, i get the over hyped annoyance you have with Frenchie.

But, the kid produces on some level. He's not an albatross around the Braves' neck. He hasn't turned in an Andruw Jones '07 year. He's not eating his way out of the league.

We all, as fans, have our favorites. I used to love Pete Smith more than Smoltz or Glavine. Andruw more than Chipper. But I guess I just don't get the "he's average" "he's killing us" approach to Frenchie.

[JCStone7]

Of course we can always go back to the Raul Mondesi-Brian Jordan platoon since Francoeur is just a hump in the lineup.

[charpotsss]

Jeff Francoeur is just the perfect example of how much a guy's personality affects his image. It's not just about what he does on the field. And that's really something I've always enjoyed about the Braves. I've always had a lot of respect for our players, our coaches, and our front office, even if they aren't the best in baseball.

Yes, Jeff is an average player. But that doesn't mean he can't be a fan favorite based off of other qualities he has. And as long as he's a cheap option, I definitely want him in a Braves uniform. His personality will probably give him more chances to screw up and not play well than other guys will get, but I think that's OK. Bobby has always stuck with his guys and given them a real chance to make it, and I like that. Maybe Jeff will bloom into a better than average player, maybe not. Either way, I love him.

[JCStone7]

In other words, we love Francoeur for the same reason you love Kelly Johnson. Kelly Johnson is a gamer who has good potential while not being a pompist ass in the process.

Don't fault the man for being praised, that's out of his control. I'm in the same boat as char, I think everyone here wants every player to be like Francoeur personality wise.

[VMIBravesfan36]

I agree that he's not a superstar and that people tend to make him out to be. I don't agree however that he should be made into a platoon man. Someone that puts up 100+ RBI's in his two full seasons and pretty much still on track for that now doesn't fit in with the platoon role. He hit .293 last year. Last time I checked that's pretty good for a 24 year old to hit .293 with 105 RBI's. Sure his HR's went down, but his doubles shot up as did his walks. Terry Pendleton's work with him on being patient paid off last year and will even more with each year they work together. Also I agree that Jeff has single handedly saved games with his arm as well. He will probably never be a big OBP or high AVG hitter, but that's not his role. In a line-up you need three types of players: Guys that get on base a lot, guys that hit that can move them around the bases and hit for good average, and guys that can drive them in (Francoeur). A Gold-Glove winner who leads all outfielders in assists since he was called up in 2005, has a .280 career avg in just 2 1/2 seasons, 100+ RBI's in his two full seasons, and has played the most consecutive games of any player in baseball sounds like just a much better deal than your platoon idea.

[MPH]

Half the baseball players in the world are average or less and the other half are average or better.

For some an eight-ounce glass filled to four ounces is half-full, and to some it's half-empty.

Jeff Francoeur seems like a very glass-half-full kinda guy to me, and I'm glad he's an Atlanta Brave.

[charpotsss]

Half the baseball players in the world are average or less and the other half are average or better.

For some an eight-ounce glass filled to four ounces is half-full, and to some it's half-empty.

Jeff Francoeur seems like a very glass-half-full kinda guy to me, and I'm glad he's an Atlanta Brave.

Well said.

[Chief Knockahoma]

(i don't think he's serious about the platoon with Greg Norton.)

[JCStone7]

What are your thoughts on it Chief since you're in the same camp as Mac on this?

[Chief Knockahoma]

What are your thoughts on it Chief since you're in the same camp as Mac on this?

i know i'm in the vast minority here, but i just don't buy it. he's obviously better than the Jordan/Mondesi platoon.

we discussed it a lot last night in the chat. i mean...the numbers don't lie, he's an average baseball player. i don't really understand how he's viewed as the next face of the franchise.

like i told McCarroll in the chat last night - if Kotsay does well and we can get him for a reasonable price then i'd be all for having him stick around and be in RF. because before too long Francoeur is going to be out of our price range and leaving town. and that's another thing i pointed out...Jeff is being praised as the next face of the franchise and then he's gonna bolt town and kill the fanbase.

the one pitch AB's and the three pitch K's drive me nuts. Diaz does it too but not everyone looks at Diaz as the next big thing. i know he's still young but he's also still doing the bad things he's always done.

[jackmcmanus21]

Jeff Francoeur has me over 100 points in my fantasy league...more than most of my OF

[JCStone7]

The stats may show he's an average player but he's getting paid an average player's salary. Diaz makes 3x what Frenchy is making this year and Kotsay is making 6x what he makes. Sure he may bolt once he hits free agency but so could've Chipper, Smoltz, etc. No one knows what Frenchy will decide in 2012 when he can become a free agent.

As Mac said in the article, blame Frank Wren, Schuerholz, even Bobby Cox for putting Francoeur on a pedastal. All Francoeur can be faulted for is coming in right off the bat and producing. Sure his OPS may be low, his BA may be low, but I'll take a great baseball guy that'll give you everything he's got day in and day out give you 20/100 annually from the 6 spot in the order any day of the week.

[PeytonAllen]

Francoeur leaving the team in a few years? That's a stretch Chief. Very subjective take.

We're not the Marlins people. Our payroll actually went up to over 100 million this year. You're saying Jeff is going to price himself out of our range? I don't see that at all.

And if you believe he's an average player easily replaced by Kotsay, how would his departure 'kill' the franchise? If anything in your mind it should embolden it.

Jeff is a Georgia boy, and like Chipper a homegrown Braves talent. The only way he leaves is if the team sours on him like they did Andruw. Make no mistake if Jones didn't fall of the map last year and if the Braves believed he could still patrol center like he used to and hit well, I think Jones would be a Brave.

Jeff has a LONG way to go before he can even dream of asking for that kind of money. He may never.

Clearly he's not an All-Star yet, but now he's being tagged with leaving at some point and killing the franchise. Right.

[vnodnarb]

It's not so much he'll price himself out of affordability for the Braves as he will price himself out of what he is worth. I agree he is average. I also agree it's a very real possibility he will leave because the Braves won't overpaid. I also think it's too early to throw in the towel, a year from now if he still isn't showing improvement where it counts I think he should be traded.

[JCStone7]

I also think it's too early to throw in the towel, a year from now if he still isn't showing improvement where it counts I think he should be traded.

Improvement in his OPS?

[PeytonAllen]

I think the Braves get rid of who they want to get rid of. Giles, etc. They're pretty good at reading players and not afraid to say, "Okay we brought Marcus up, got attached to him, but he's sliding. He's gone. We'll just plug in Johnson and teach him 2nd." And it's worked. I didn't want to see Jones go, but he's hitting (though its early) worse than he did last year.

The bottom line is if the Braves truly want to keep Jeff here long term I think he'll be here long term.

[vnodnarb]

Improvement in his OPS?

OPS+, he needs to get that up around 115-120. He also needs to work on his routes defensively. Fortunately, I don't think either of those goals is out of his reach.

[vnodnarb]

I think the Braves get rid of who they want to get rid of. Giles, etc. They're pretty good at reading players and not afraid to say, "Okay we brought Marcus up, got attached to him, but he's sliding. He's gone. We'll just plug in Johnson and teach him 2nd." And it's worked. I didn't want to see Jones go, but he's hitting (though its early) worse than he did last year.

The bottom line is if the Braves truly want to keep Jeff here long term I think he'll be here long term.

It takes two to tango. I'm sure the Braves will want to keep him, but I doubt they will want to keep him at Jeff's price. Last time I heard, the extension he wanted was in the neighborhood of double what the Braves were willing to offer.

[JCStone7]

Don't like it, write a counter article. :)

You wrote the counter argument albeit 6 months later

http://www.braves-nation.com/forums/showthread.php?t=7466

But at least Mac is consistent with his arguments, but believes in them more adamantly now.

[cjones1999]

Yeah, we really need to platoon the guy who led the team in RBI with Greg Norton.:rolleyes:

[vnodnarb]

Yeah, we really need to platoon the guy who lead the team in RBI with Greg Norton.:rolleyes:

Hitting with RISP from 05-07, Jeff has a .916 OPS, which is very good. He also put up a .879 OPS in close and late situations. Those are both better ways to look at clutch hitting than RBI's. RBI's can be distorted by having a lot more opportunities than others or playing in more games thus getting more at bats than others.

[JCStone7]

Hitting with RISP from 05-07, Jeff has a .916 OPS, which is very good. He also put up a .879 OPS in close and late situations. Those are both better ways to look at clutch hitting than RBI's. RBI's can be distorted by having a lot more opportunities than others or playing in more games thus getting more at bats than others.

AKA Andruw Jones

[SamtheBravesFan]

Yeah, we really need to platoon the guy who lead the team in RBI with Greg Norton.:rolleyes:

Chipper leads the team in RBIs. :confused:

[McCarroll21]

Guys, I wish I would have been around today to be able to clear up the Norton thing ... obviously a joke. No way I'd want Norton stealing at-bats from a clearly better player. That's like Willie Harris from a year ago.

I said many times there was nothing wrong with average, as long as that's how he is perceived. He's not viewed as that in the eyes of man. I said it's not the fault of the fans either, it starts with the guys in the Braves front office.

Just wait until Francoeur hits arbitration and because he's rejected every offer he got in each off-season before and gets renewed, the arbiters finally "reward" him for his low pay for the previous years. After that, his arbitration price can only increase.

By the time he's looking at free agency, do you want to be paying $7-8 million for an average right fielder?

I've been pretty consistent on Jeff for a long time, just as I was with Andruw. It's not like I'm going to alter my views on it because others don't agree.

I'm not saying Jeff sucks, he's clearly talented. He's just not as good as what people have made him out to be. He gets jammed all the time. He strikes out on pitches three feet outside when in a big RBI spot. If he's not doing that, he's grounding out weakly because he got one in on the fists.

He's just not improving. He's Andruw Jones Part II minus the defense and on-base skills.

People will say, he's young, he's still got time to improve. If he's not doing it yet and he's three years into his major league career, when will he?

[vnodnarb]

What has the Braves front office done wrong?

[JCStone7]

What has the Braves front office done wrong?

Over-hype him, as they're doing with Jordan Schafer currently.

[vnodnarb]

Over-hype him, as they're doing with Jordan Schafer currently.

I'm confused, I think casual fans over-hype him, not the front office.

[Chief Knockahoma]

I'm confused, I think casual fans over-hype him, not the front office.

x2

[McCarroll21]

What has the Braves front office done wrong?
Keep putting him out there, keep marketing him as something he's not just because it's working, probably called him up too soon (though we desperately needed it).


I'm just saying the rest of the Braves fans won't see it until the front office does.

They're so caught up in him and what he wants they forget the team. Since that 7 RBI game in Washington, Jeff is batting .263/.310/.382 - .692 and has been hurt for half of that. He hasn't hit a homer since April 12.

Bobby won't sit him down to get him a day off, Francoeur won't allow anyone to sit him to get a day off. He actually thinks he'll play another 1500 games consecutively and it's hurting the team for him to be out there while he's struggling with that ankle. He's not the same, both offensively and defensively.

[JCStone7]

I'm confused, I think casual fans over-hype him, not the front office.

It has an adverse effect. They did the same thing they are doing with Schafer now, going to watch him play and specifically point out that that guy impressed you when you saw him, in articles, on interviews...etc... When you see them in off-season stuff they're "talking" about one specific prospect

[vnodnarb]

I think there is a difference between playing a guy who needs a day off or two and over-hyping him.

[cjones1999]

Chipper leads the team in RBIs. :confused:
I was talking about 2007.

[Rip4144]

Bobby won't sit him down to get him a day off, Francoeur won't allow anyone to sit him to get a day off. He actually thinks he'll play another 1500 games consecutively and it's hurting the team for him to be out there while he's struggling with that ankle. He's not the same, both offensively and defensively.[/quote]


Francoeur won't sit down or allow anyone to sit him down. No wonder the players love to play for Bobby. Gosh, I thought as manager he was in charge. If he is hurt sit him let the ankle heal. It's a long season.

[Nasadega]

That's okay, he's young and going to get better, right?

<table border="0" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="0" width="200"><tbody><tr><td align="center">
</td><td align="center">vs. LHP</td><td align="center">vs. RHP</td></tr><tr><td align="center">2005</td><td align="center">.424</td><td align="center">.189</td></tr><tr><td align="center">2006</td><td align="center">.226</td><td align="center">.176</td></tr><tr><td align="center">2007</td><td align="center">.169</td><td align="center">.143</td></tr></tbody></table>
Uh oh. We're going in the wrong direction, Jeff. Now let's look at those strikeout percentages and see how they're fairing with more seasoning.

<table border="0" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="0" width="200"><tbody><tr><td align="center">
</td><td align="center">vs. LHP</td><td align="center">vs. RHP</td></tr><tr><td align="center">2005</td><td align="center">22.73%</td><td align="center">22.51%</td></tr><tr><td align="center">2006</td><td align="center">17.26%</td><td align="center">21.33%</td></tr><tr><td align="center">2007</td><td align="center">15.87%</td><td align="center">22.12%</td></tr></tbody></table>
Jeff, you're still not improving. His strikeouts may be going down against left handed pitching, but they're hovering right around the same when batting against right handed pitching.

Now that you've seen the numbers, without going into too much depth, why is this guy still playing against right handed pitchers? If he has to play, why is he still batting in the middle of the order against them?

This article sucks because you only talked about things that didn't improve. What about his OPS going from 87 to 103 (ok that's from horrible to average, but that's still improvement). If his OPS was to go up the same way this year, it would stand around 120. What tells you that he can't make the same improvement again?
So far in 2008 he has a 10% strikeout rate against righties. I know you said he's just getting lame outs on the field, but what happens the day he learns to make better contacts of pitches he just couldn't touch before?
What about his ops going up by 40 points in the second half last year?
you just went on baseball reference, picked up a bunch of stats showing something bad and went from there. And no matter what you say, he's still young. Seasoning is not a matter of how many at bats you have, it's obvious that as a 24yo, Francoeur's mind isn't set in stone.

Yes it's frustrating when he pops out on the first pitch or gets stupid strikeouts (oh and btw, the perfectly clutch player doesn't exist), but he's also capable of destroying any form of pitching when he's on. What makes you believe that he's never gonna do more of the latter, except than "he's overrated and has a 0.005732 WARP3+ against righties"?

And about him having a day off? Is he the one to blame if Bobby can't ball up and bench him? I know this streak talk is stupid, and I would toss it away for a better production from Frenchy as soon as possible, but no players wants to take a day off unless he's about to die. Oh and btw, who would you rather have in RF than Francoeur (except for the unusual off day)? Geb, Raul Mondesi, Langerhans, Willie Harris?

[Rip4144]

In 500 at bats the difference betwwen hitting .300 and .250 is 25 hits. About one hit a week.

[charpotsss]

Just an interesting comparison of Chipper's first two full seasons (95/96) and Frenchy's (06/07). I didn't feel like cutting out the rest.

http://www.sabrewulf.net/img/frenchy.jpg

[McCarroll21]

Nas:
I'd rather have a left handed hitting outfielder that could be a platoon partner.

You're talking about improvements on his worst year? Anyone would have improved from that.

What makes up OPS Nas? On-base and slugging percentage. His OPS went up because his batting average went up. So, he hit more singles. That's good, but it's not improving the power. His isoSLG went down.

If we're going to give him a free pass because he's a singles hitter now, bat him 8th against righties so we're not counting on his power and pay him accordingly when time comes and I'm fine with that.

----

char:
This post (http://www.braves-nation.com/forums/showthread.php?p=104058&#post104058) kind of compares Francoeur and Chipper, while also comparing him to Vladimir Guerrero and Derek Jeter. It's looking at their 21, 22 and 23 year old seasons. Chipper only has the 23 year old season since he missed his entire 22 year old season with an injury. The rest of that thread is a good read, too.

[MPH]

I posted this the last time we had this discussion, and my opinion hasn't changed:

This thread has really hit every aspect of Francoeur's performance, and it's interesting to go back and read it all - from the beginning of the article right up to the last post.

One thing that can't be stressed enough is that Francoeur IS a very popular guy. People like him and admire him out of all proportion to his on-field performance; and if his winning personality, 200 watt grin, and favorable reputation make him seem a little (or a lot) better than he really is, that's great!

Players like Francoeur who take an active, visible role in public affairs and humanitarian causes, and whose popularity extends beyond the stadium walls, get all kinds of people talking and thinking about baseball - especially people who are more 'Frenchy fans' than baseball fans.

The guy puts butts in the seats, creates his own brand of buzz, and sets a positive example for youngsters. That's all terrific and important, good for the team, good for us, and good for the game. We are lucky to have Francoeur and others like him in baseball, and I hope he remains a Brave forever.

Go Braves!

<!-- / message --><!-- sig -->http://www.braves-nation.com/forums/showpost.php?p=152133&postcount=76

[PeytonAllen]

I'm not concerned right now with how much Jeff will be getting paid when he's up for Free agency. Who cares right now?

I'm sure it was somewhat tongue in cheek but to suggest he's a singles hitter now is a bit much.

I was alarmed by his lack of power in '07 as well. But, he seems to be driving the ball more this year to date. Near the league lead in doubles, 1 triple, and he's hit at least a couple balls off the wall for doubles.

To date he's struck out less than Kelly Johnson and Teix.

To hands down say he's not improving is pretty subjective. The kid isn't Vlad, or Chipper, or Dale Murphy. I think he can and will get better. Again i just have trouble painting him as an average player who you want to keep for 2-3 million a year. To me that's going the other extreme from those who think he's a superstar.

I don't have the inside information to know how bad Jeff's ankle is, or how badly it's affecting his performance. I wouldn't mind seeing the streak broken just to break it, and get over the Murph/Ripken comparisons. But then...I think Vlad had a streak going once. It's just age. Andruw played 162 a lot, I think. I'm not worried about it.

Frenchie will get paid because he's in a glamorous position, he's the home town kid, who married a good girl, etc. He's the PR dream. And i'm sure his agent wants to wait to see him try and develop before signing a long term deal. I get it. It doesn't make him a money hungry fiend who will leave Atlanta if they don't pony up 18 million when he's hitting .280 and knocking 20 out a year.

It's impossible to predict what his stats will look like at the All-star break, let alone heading into free agency.

[731BravesFan]

my 2 cents.. i don't feel like getting statistical - but to the face of the argument thing:

he's not that in the sense that he's the best player.. but i would be happy with him being the face of the franchise in the sense that he represents america's team.. the good ol' boy, not snobbish, just goes out there and gives it all he's got 162 games a year.. that's something that makes me proud to say he's a brave.. whereas he might not be as skilled as other OF's, he just keeps on truckin'.. no drama, no nothin.. just good, flat out, solidly-played ball.

[brnt247]

I was thinking yesterday, is it even a good idea to sign Francoeur long term? He'll be asking for a lot of money, and we have a good amount of corner outfielders coming up.

If you're saying he's in the game because of his defense, then that is just ridiculous. Once every now and then he gets to show off his arm, and it doesn't happen too frequently. The amount of runs we lose because of his range compared to the amount of runs we hold down because of his arm are probably close, if anything in favor of the amount of runs we lose.

[charpotsss]

I was thinking yesterday, is it even a good idea to sign Francoeur long term? He'll be asking for a lot of money, and we have a good amount of corner outfielders coming up.

If you're saying he's in the game because of his defense, then that is just ridiculous. Once every now and then he gets to show off his arm, and it doesn't happen too frequently. The amount of runs we lose because of his range compared to the amount of runs we hold down because of his arm are probably close, if anything in favor of the amount of runs we lose.

I'm definitely a Francoeur fan, and I agree with you. If he asks for a ton of money, then there's no way it's a good idea to keep him around. Unless his numbers improve and he becomes better than average.

[chip&smoltz95]

In other words, we love Francoeur for the same reason you love Kelly Johnson. Kelly Johnson is a gamer who has good potential while not being a pompist ass in the process.

Don't fault the man for being praised, that's out of his control. I'm in the same boat as char, I think everyone here wants every player to be like Francoeur personality wise.

great point I think. I think sometimes they get a little more slack with the fans because they are personable.


Keep putting him out there, keep marketing him as something he's not just because it's working, probably called him up too soon (though we desperately needed it).


I'm just saying the rest of the Braves fans won't see it until the front office does.

They're so caught up in him and what he wants they forget the team. Since that 7 RBI game in Washington, Jeff is batting .263/.310/.382 - .692 and has been hurt for half of that. He hasn't hit a homer since April 12.

Bobby won't sit him down to get him a day off, Francoeur won't allow anyone to sit him to get a day off. He actually thinks he'll play another 1500 games consecutively and it's hurting the team for him to be out there while he's struggling with that ankle. He's not the same, both offensively and defensively.


That's very true. However, I think if he would have sat when it was really hurting him, the team would have been missing chipper, escobar, kotsay, and him from the mets series. I know it's a long season, but I think you have to give him a little credit for playing through pain. I think chipper, escobar, and KJ have all done it so far this year. That's what the stars do. On that note though, I don't know how severe it is either. If it is hindering mobility and plate production, I agree, you have to sit him.

[brnt247]

Originally Posted by JCStone7 http://www.braves-nation.com/forums/braves_style/buttons/viewpost.gif (http://www.braves-nation.com/forums/showthread.php?p=209466#post209466)
In other words, we love Francoeur for the same reason you love Kelly Johnson. Kelly Johnson is a gamer who has good potential while not being a pompist ass in the process.


Personally, I like KJ because he fits the mold of a player I think builds a winning team. Not his personality nor his grit, but the type of player he is. Francoeur probably has more heart and determination than Kelly, but to me if you put 8 guys like Francoeur, Eckstein, Rowand against a team of guys like Kelly, Chipper, Swisher, or Burrell, I'd have to believe the guys who play with their heads instead of their 'hearts' would win. It may not be the style that gets the fans in the seats, but it's the style that can win you championships.

[milbraves]

I still just don't understand how Bobby could play a guy for ALL 162 games when he finishes the season with an OBP that STARTS WITH TWO. (2006) But playing him all 162 the NEXT season? Yeah, I guess Bobby's a sucker for that Megawatt smile, just like a lot of Braves' fans.

[JCStone7]

Francoeur isn't paid to get on base, he's paid to drive the ones on in. As was the case with Andruw Jones, JD Drew, and Gary Sheffield before him.

[brnt247]

Francoeur isn't paid to get on base, he's paid to drive the ones on in. As was the case with Andruw Jones, JD Drew, and Gary Sheffield before him.

I think every player is paid to get on base, the reasons why Andruw, JD, and Gary were better than Francoeur isn't because their skill is just that much more superior than Jeff's, but because they have the patience to wait for a pitch to hit. All of their OBP's while with the Braves were great, which is why they were more productive in driving in runs, scoring runs, and they were essential parts of teams that actually won, while Jeff is a secondary part of a team that hasn't made the playoffs in two years.

[JCStone7]

I think every player is paid to get on base, the reasons why Andruw, JD, and Gary were better than Francoeur isn't because their skill is just that much more superior than Jeff's, but because they have the patience to wait for a pitch to hit. All of their OBP's while with the Braves were great, which is why they were more productive in driving in runs, scoring runs, and they were essential parts of teams that actually won, while Jeff is a secondary part of a team that hasn't made the playoffs in two years.

Everything you mentioned Jeff has worked on, DAMNED IF HE DOES, DAMNED IF HE DOESN'T. They want Jeff to work the count while maintaining his aggressiveness. Bobby and Wren has said this and I think he's doing better at it.

So the Braves haven't made the playoffs in 2 years. So you can throw Kelly, Renteria, Chipper, Teixeira, McCann, Smoltz, Hudson all under that bus as well.

[MSU Bulldog]

I think every player is paid to get on base, the reasons why Andruw, JD, and Gary were better than Francoeur isn't because their skill is just that much more superior than Jeff's, but becausethey have the patience to wait for a pitch to hit. All of their OBP's while with the Braves were great, which is why they were more productive in driving in runs, scoring runs, and they were essential parts of teams that actually won, while Jeff is a secondary part of a team that hasn't made the playoffs in two years.

I find that funny as hell! :lol:

[brnt247]

I find that funny as hell! :lol:

His career .80 isoOBP isn't laughing.

[JCStone7]

His career .80 isoOBP isn't laughing.

Neither is LA nor Andruw's wallet

[brnt247]

Neither is LA nor Andruw's wallet

Yeh, but we were talking about how it's Jeff's job to drive in runs as it was Shef's, Andruw's, and JD's. None of them are doing so hot now, but with the Braves they all thrived. They had on base skills, power, and drove in runs.

I'm not blaming Francoeur for not making the playoffs. I'm stating that Andruw, JD, and Sheff were all very key players on teams that did win and did make the playoffs. Jeff isn't exactly a key player on this team, he does a decent job and is a fine #6 hitter. The difference between a crucial member of a team that wins division titles compared to being an average #6 hitter on a 3rd place team is pretty vast in my opinion.

[MSU Bulldog]

His career .80 isoOBP isn't laughing.

Those good sliders in the dirt he was waiting on are.

I like Druw, but give me a break.

[JCStone7]

Jeff isn't exactly a key player on this team, he does a decent job and is a fine #6 hitter. The difference between a crucial member of a team that wins division titles compared to being an average #6 hitter on a 3rd place team is pretty vast in my opinion.

Fair enough, I think it's pretty clear it's the casual fans' fault for making Francoeur something that he is not (a superstar/face of the franchise). I think we're all in agreeance with the bolded statement (at least I am).

Personally I define a key player as a player that it's almost impossible to replace (Chipper, McCann, Teixeira, etc.) But to steal from Dennis Green - Jeff Francoeur is who we thought he is: A good player, (not the greatest, certainly not the worst but in the middle or aka average) a great PR plug, and a good guy. That's why I like him and I'm damn proud he is a standup guy on the Atlanta Braves.

But I've put my two cents in, so I'll let some others join in on the discussion for the sake of my sanity. :beer:

[charpotsss]

he does a decent job and is a fine #6 hitter. The difference between a crucial member of a team that wins division titles compared to being an average #6 hitter on a 3rd place team is pretty vast in my opinion.

I would be interested in comparing Jeff's stats to other #6 batters. Anyone know how to do this easily, or would even be interested in it?

[charpotsss]

agreeance

New word you made up, eh? :p

[PeytonAllen]

i think it's foolish to say Jeff isn't a "key" player on this team. Everybody is key, but let's not belittle what the Braves expect and want out of Frenchie too much.

It's more fun to see KJ, Chipper, or some of the guys with great eyes work the count and think their way through an at bat. Jeff is trying. But, he may never be anywhere near their league. That doesn't mean he's a throwaway player who isn't key.

I'd like to think if Jeff's range was that horrible that it's costing us runs on a nightly basis, Bobby would have the sense to do something. He's not Kotsay, Jones, or Edmounds out there, but he's not Canseco watching homers bounce off his head either. I just hate the "yeah, but" arguments about his saving runs.

I had to laugh at "he's a fine #6 hitter." Maybe the Braves should pay Bill James. Or someone to pay attention. He's much better in the 5 hole.

[PeytonAllen]

A hitter should hit anywhere, that's clear, but wow..I just looked at his splits from far back as '06. He's much better hitting 5th.

Thanks Bobby!

[MSU Bulldog]

New word you made up, eh? :p

He's a fan of Don King-isms.

[brnt247]

A hitter should hit anywhere, that's clear, but wow..I just looked at his splits from far back as '06. He's much better hitting 5th.

Thanks Bobby!

He bats 5th vs. lefties, and as McC posted before his stats vs lefties are extremely better than his stats vs. righties. He has many more at bats, however, in the #6 hole.

[PeytonAllen]

He bats 5th vs. lefties, and as McC posted before his stats vs lefties are extremely better than his stats vs. righties. He has many more at bats, however, in the #6 hole.

The 5th spot vs lefties isn't exclusive. He's batted 5th vs. right handers.

[brnt247]

The 5th spot vs lefties isn't exclusive. He's batted 5th vs. right handers.

Unless McCann is out of the lineup, he bats 6th vs. right handers. Where he produces the best doesn't mean that is his spot in the lineup, where he appears the most makes it his spot in the lineup. He appears the most at the #6 spot than anywhere else, he's a #6 hitter.

[PeytonAllen]

Oh sure now you clarify, 'when McCann is out.' :)

[chip&smoltz95]

Fair enough, I think it's pretty clear it's the casual fans' fault for making Francoeur something that he is not (a superstar/face of the franchise). I think we're all in agreeance with the bolded statement (at least I am).

Personally I define a key player as a player that it's almost impossible to replace (Chipper, McCann, Teixeira, etc.) But to steal from Dennis Green - Jeff Francoeur is who we thought he is: A good player, (not the greatest, certainly not the worst but in the middle or aka average) a great PR plug, and a good guy. That's why I like him and I'm damn proud he is a standup guy on the Atlanta Braves.

But I've put my two cents in, so I'll let some others join in on the discussion for the sake of my sanity. :beer:

that's never gonna get old, but it surprises me how much the media uses it. the guys on PTI and such say it from time to time. It's ALWAYS hilarious!

[MPH]

New word you made up, eh? :p According to the Oxford English Dictionary, "agreeance" is really a word, but an obsolete one that has not been used since the 1500's.

Stoney is an etymological ontologist! (And apparently a Limp Bizkit fan.)

http://www.cnn.com/2003/SHOWBIZ/03/10/showbuzz/index.html

[McCarroll21]

I use agreeance quite a bit, too.

[MPH]

I use agreeance quite a bit, too.
But are you a Limp Bizkit fan?

[McCarroll21]

But are you a Limp Bizkit fan?
Naa... Stoney can have that title on his own.

[JCStone7]

Significant Other wasn't bad.... but I digress, I just like the word :thumbsup:

[timmy]

But don't let that hide the fact that he's a darn good ball player.

Who are the better hitting RFs in the NL?
Brad Hawpe
Justin Upton
Fukudome
Xavier Nady
Corey Hart
Matt Kemp
Rick Ankiel

I don't necessarily belief all of those guys are better than Frenchy at the plate either.
For example Kemp while hitting well early on this year, has struck out 31 times while walking just 6. Compare that to Jeff who's only K'd 16 times while drawing 8 walks.
Hart's sporting a whooping .402 SLG percentage this year.
Xavier Nady's career OBP is .334, has never walked more than 24 times in a season, and has the same career OPS as Jeff. Nady's also 6 years older than our "Golden Boy," so while it appears Xavier's gearing up for a career year, I believe that Francouer will be a much better hitter in 6 years than Nady is now.
Hawpe's a better hitter now, but he is also 5 years older.

Any way you look at it Francouer is in the top half of National League right fielders, and I'd take him over any of the other current right fielders in the NL East. Kearns is a joke at the plate. Church isn't really the best hitter in the Met's lineup and has much more yeoman-like career numbers. Hermida's perennially injured. Victorino is a fourth outfielder with an everyday job.

Batting 6th Francouer's no slouch either, compare that to the bats a lot of other teams have in the 6th slot, and he generally looks pretty good.

This is the line for 2008 hitters batting 6th .258/.333/.419
This is the line for 2008 RF .278/.346/.436
Jeff Francouer's line for 2008 .263/.310/.436

Keep in mind Jeff's BA, OBP, and SLG, are all currently below what he posted last year, and because he is walking more, and has added some muscle I believe he will improve on his 07 campaign, especially in the power department.

I think it's fairly universally agreed upon that he's a stud defensively, so I won't even try arguing that.

My point is that while he might not be the greatest player, or the next Chipper. He's still young and he's got a helluva career ahead of him, I can see him putting together 5 or more 30 hr seasons. And I think the walks will become less and less of an issue. He's cut his K-to-BB ratio from 6/1 in 06, to 3/1 in 07, to 2/1 thus far in 08.

[Jack Francoeur]

I know I'm late on this and I'm a little biased, but you're talking about taking our only player who is willing to play all 162 games and platooning him. That's a terrible idea regardless of the numbers, sometimes you need a guy who willing to step up and play everyday. I think if Francoeur had started the season off like everyone predicted and really broke out, this wouldn't even be a discussion. But here we are in May talking about how he's just average.

[JCStone7]

I know I'm late on this and I'm a little biased

Point of advice, don't start off an argument saying your biased.

[GrandMasterB]

I think if Francoeur had started the season off like everyone predicted and really broke out, this wouldn't even be a discussion. But here we are in May talking about how he's just average.

That's because there would be no need for it. If he hit like everyone expected him to, that would be great. But the fact is, he doesn't. He's talked about as average because he is average.

[Jack Francoeur]

Point of advice, don't start off an argument saying your biased.

I was stating the obvious. You can tell by my name and avatar that I'm going to have a biased opinion about Francoeur. If I came on here and pretended to have an unbiased opinion you guys would call me a homer and give me crap about that. My god, you catch crap for the smallest stuff on this board.

[charpotsss]

I was stating the obvious. You can tell by my name and avatar that I'm going to have a biased opinion about Francoeur. If I came on here and pretended to have an unbiased opinion you guys would call me a homer and give me crap about that. My god, you catch crap for the smallest stuff on this board.

I really like this board, but I have to agree with you there. People can be quick to jump on you at times. However, they're all really harmless and they just tell it like it is.

And anyone who likes Francoeur and argues in his defense is obviously biased toward him, it doesn't really matter what your name is, it just tells people even when you're not supporting Francoeur that he's pretty much your favorite player.

[Jsh1284]

I don't really agree with the talk about Jeff being 'average" .. yes, except for last night, he's been putting up average numbers. The thing is he has the ability to be much more than just an average player. Considering that fact alone I dont think you can call him average. He shows flashes of brilliance (ala last night) at times, it's just come in small doses since he first came up.

I like to compare him to Pat Burrell. Everyone said similar stuff about him when he came up and didn't mash 50 homers a year like everyone had hoped, but as of late, he's become the hitter everyone expected of him and that talk has died. In similar fashion .. I don't think it's accurate to call him average when his talent is that of an all-star right fielder. He just hasn't translated that talent to consistent performance on the field yet. It may come, and it may not. He's still not 'average' though. Nobody who can swing it like he can when he's going good .. can be called an average player.

[JCStone7]

I was stating the obvious. You can tell by my name and avatar that I'm going to have a biased opinion about Francoeur. If I came on here and pretended to have an unbiased opinion you guys would call me a homer and give me crap about that. My god, you catch crap for the smallest stuff on this board.

I gave you advice, that doesn't mean I discredit your entire argument. If you're genuinely hurt by my comments then I'll just stay out of your way from now on.

[gobravez]

I gave you advice, that doesn't mean I discredit your entire argument. If you're genuinely hurt by my comments then I'll just stay out of your way from now on.

I don't think he was singling you out, he was saying that everyone on the board in general jumps on people over little things far to often. Which I agree with to an extent, but it's not as bad as it used to be.

Anyway, it's good to see that Francoeur is trying to be more selective at the plate. Maybe his good night last night will jump start him. If Tex and him contiune to heat up then we are going to be in good shape!

[MSU Bulldog]

Rumblings & Grumblings (http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/columns/story?columnist=stark_jayson&page=rumblings) In the spring of 2007, the Braves approached both Francoeur and his buddy Brian McCann with similar long-term offers, contracts that could have tied them up through 2013. McCann said yes. Francoeur said no. So this spring, the Braves tried again, offering a contract believed to be in the same range as Curtis Granderson's new deal (five years, $32.25 million). Francoeur said no again. Eventually, the two sides couldn't agree on even a one-year contract. So the Braves wound up renewing him (at $460,000). That makes two years in a row that Francoeur has gone the renewal route. And that sets the stage for a much more intriguing negotiation next year, when Francoeur finally becomes eligible for arbitration. The Braves will be out to keep him from turning into their version of Ryan Howard. And though Francoeur will continue to love being a Brave, and the Braves will continue to work at keeping him around, there's a word for where this is headed: Expensive.
Just in case anyone is bored with this talk. ;)

[JCStone7]

Ugh, no comment!

[charpotsss]

That's a little ridiculous. He really thinks THAT much of himself? Or that LITTLE of Atlanta? I try not to make too many judgments based on what I hear, but this does make me a little bit less fond of him.

[McCarroll21]

So... about paying him what he's worth? The renewals were a plan from day one for Francoeur and that plan is to make the team look worse to the arbiters next year when arbitration arises.

It's interesting how the man who loves playing for his home town and loves the fans so much and loves the Braves organization so much won't agree to a long-term deal that was giving him a shitload of money. It's also interesting that all of the Francoeur Posse can't see it and throw stones at the people that do.

Let's see... my gripes:


He's never going to figure it out. I got killed for it. Rosenthal posted Tuesday morning that a scout said the same thing to him.
He's not going to be paid what he's worth, but instead much, much more. I got killed for it. Now Stark posts the same thing.

Seriously guys. How hard are those things to see and why am I getting killed for posting my thoughts? Get your nose out of his ass and realize that a smile doesn't make the player. He's certainly proven now that he doesn't love the city, organization and fans as much as he says he does, else he would have taken the money and long-term deal to stay here.

There's no way he's worth $32.25 million over five years. You guys know that, right?

[MSU Bulldog]

It's interesting how the man who loves playing for his home town and loves the fans so much and loves the Braves organization so much won't agree to a long-term deal that was giving him a shitload of money.

Agreed, I wish I could find the post from last year that said there was more to him than meets the eye in that respect. I got utterly slammed for that comment.

[Chief Knockahoma]

Agreed, I wish I could find the post from last year that said there was more to him than meets the eye in that respect. I got utterly slammed for that comment.

i believe this is it.

For some reason I believe a lot of Francoeur's persona is a front, and deep down he is really arrogant and greedy. I think his initial contract required invites to spring training. I know some young players have those stipulations in thier contracts, but I think this is very telling of how he will be in the future.

from this thread: http://www.braves-nation.com/forums/showthread.php?t=2782

[MSU Bulldog]

i believe this is it.



from this thread: http://www.braves-nation.com/forums/showthread.php?t=2782

You are indeed, the BN Historian!